Adele_L comments on Self-serving meta: Whoever keeps block-downvoting me, is there some way to negotiate peace? - Less Wrong

16 Post author: ialdabaoth 16 November 2013 04:35AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (281)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Adele_L 17 November 2013 06:08:44AM *  14 points [-]

Some other people who have been complaining about block downvoting are daenerys, NancyLebovitz and shminux.

I notice that one thing all of these people (including you) have in common is that you have all said progressive things about gender, whereas Eugine Nier says reactionary things regarding gender.

It's probably worth talking to these people and seeing if the timing works out the same, but it does seem likely that the downvoting is all caused by the same person, and thus would have similar motives and MO with the downvoting.

Comment author: Desrtopa 18 November 2013 06:58:31PM 13 points [-]

You can count me as another member who has both been block downvoted, and suspects Eugine Nier as the most likely candidate based on my patterns of downvotes received when I participate in conversations or debates with him.

Comment author: Dentin 20 November 2013 09:19:49PM 8 points [-]

Looking at his comment history, it seems he focuses on US politics and gender issues a disproportionate amount. Politics is the mindkiller?

Comment author: lmm 17 November 2013 10:28:48PM 5 points [-]

I saw what looked like a small-scale block-downvote, and I'm mostly quite reactionary on gender (and my most recent likely-controversial statements have been a very reactionary view on polyamory).

Comment author: [deleted] 18 November 2013 11:50:47PM *  26 points [-]

It's probably worth talking to these people and seeing if the timing works out the same, but it does seem likely that the downvoting is all caused by the same person, and thus would have similar motives and MO with the downvoting.

Personally, I am pretty certain that is gender issues that cause my karma stalking. It's the only topic I write on that gets any significant number of downvotes. Also, due to timing, my best guess (though I'm not highly confident) is that the triggering event was my post in the mistakes thread admitting to staying married longer than I should have due to not being confident in my independence. I knew when writing it that some of the MRA assholes on here would take offense at it.

Also, whoever is doing it has pretty effectively made me unlikely to post a lot on here. (I still occassionally browse, and obviously I'm writing this, so it's not like I've completely quit or anything.) It's annoying to deal with (and saying "you should just stop caring" is about as effective of advice as telling people to "be more confident"). Considering that half my facebook feed is rationalist/LWers anyways, it's higher reward to just post my thoughts there and not have to deal with the LW baggage, but still get the interesting conversation with the people I want to talk with anyways.

Just figured I should say something because if evaporative cooling is happening in general (and it isn't just me), it could be hidden because the people who leave aren't saying anything.

(ETA: I actually have not lost a LOT of karma from this, so it's not the amount/number. It's just the fact that it's consistent, and it's everything I post)

Comment author: JoshuaZ 19 November 2013 02:56:39AM 19 points [-]

That's actually pretty frightening, since that indicates that this sort of thing has a real impact on the tenor and participation in the community. This strongly makes me update to thinking that we should have admins actually look at logs for this sort of thing.

Comment author: TimS 21 November 2013 04:13:57AM 9 points [-]

Data Point (of questionable value):

I post here must less often that I used to. Reasons:
1) Not good use of my time
2) This site reinforces modes of thought that are not useful for me - I love philosophy, especially moral philosophy, but that's not what I do for a living and I shouldn't allow my mental attention to be diverted.
3) Highly predictable downvotes on the topics I want to discuss - with a perception that one side gets more downvotes than the other for the purpose of evaporative cooling away of the one side. Of course, I think my side gets the short end of that stick (and I would, because politics and personal identity are the mind-killer).

Objectively, 1 & 2 are more important reasons, but subjectively, 3 feels more causally relevant to my withdrawal.

Comment author: Dorikka 19 November 2013 10:23:33PM 3 points [-]

It seems conceptually easy to create a script to return sets of votes that satisfy the following conditions:

1) Occur fairly close together, time-wise 2) Are made by the same user 3) Are down-votes 4) Decrease the post's score by => a fraction

This would likely make it easier for mods to review things like this. Unfortunately, I don't have the time+skills to do this.

Comment author: gjm 20 November 2013 02:20:35PM 7 points [-]

I have what seems to me like quite good evidence that there is at least one LW user who engages in what one might call intimidatory downvoting of users who express "progressive" views on gender.

I consider this a very, very bad thing for LW.

I am not aware of any reason to think that there is intimidatory downvoting based on any other issue. (Of course there might be some that I haven't noticed.)

Comment author: TheOtherDave 20 November 2013 03:47:38PM 4 points [-]

Do you mean by "intimidatory downvoting" something substantively different from the thing (or things) others have referred to as "retributative downvoting", "block-downvoting", "karmassassination", etc., in this and related threads? If so, can you clarify what you mean?

Comment author: gjm 20 November 2013 06:20:29PM *  9 points [-]

I'll explain how I use all those terms.

Intimidatory downvoting: Downvoting whose purpose is to discourage people from expressing certain kinds of views on LW by the threat of massive karma loss. (In particular, the threat of much more than they would lose just from having their comments expressing those views downvoted.)

Retributive downvoting: Downvoting whose purpose is to get back at someone who has annoyed or upset you, or whom you don't like for some other reason.

Block-downvoting: Largely-indiscriminative downvoting of a user's comments, whatever the reason. (I might also use the term to describe downvoting everything in some conversation, though I might not because it isn't standard terminology.)

Karmassassination: Large-scale downvoting whose aim is to reduce a particular user's karma score, for whatever reason (could be retributive, could be because you've nothing personal against them but think, after careful reflection, that it would be best for LW if they left, etc.).

I dislike intimidatory downvoting because (1) it's unreasonably unpleasant for the victim, (2) it seems like an attempt to exercise more power over what views are expressed on LW than the karma system is really meant to enable, (3) it distorts the per-comment information karma scores are meant to provide (expressed not only in the scores themselves but in thread ordering), and (4) because most users will avoid it on account of #1 and #3, it gives extra influence to those who care less about the LW community as a whole and extra importance to opinions on topics that push those people's buttons.

[EDITED to add: It occurs to me that it's possible that when not explicitly prompted to distinguish carefully between these terms, I may actually use them less carefully. I don't think so, though. I don't think I've actually used, as opposed to quoting others' use of, the term "karmassassination", which I find ugly. Though I suppose maybe an ugly thing deserves an ugly word. I've also used the term "mass-downvoting", meaning much the same as "block-downvoting".]

Comment author: TheOtherDave 20 November 2013 07:07:45PM 3 points [-]

(nods) Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Comment author: Benquo 23 November 2013 08:26:10PM 5 points [-]

Huh. This just convinced me that I should be quick to upvote things if they were even a little helpful, so that no one who isn't posting really counterproductive stuff gets that negative hit. Because you're probably not on my facebook feed, and I probably don't already agree with all the things you're going to say, so I want you and people like you to keep posting on lesswrong.

Comment author: passive_fist 21 November 2013 09:34:50PM 1 point [-]

Ideological difference is particularly pervasive in topics that are related to social sciences. I get the feeling from reading your post that you're angry. Angry not about the downvoting but more about the ideological differences.

Comment author: passive_fist 17 November 2013 10:23:18AM *  9 points [-]

I'm skeptical that this can be boiled down to some particular issue like that.

It seems far more likely to me that the block downvoter is simply doing it out of a sense of resentment regarding the individuals he/she is downvoting. I say this because he/she seems to downvote posts rapidly and without reading them, which suggests he/she is targeting individuals rather than specific viewpoints. In particular, most of the downvoted comments do not seem to have anything to do with gender.

It's possible that you're right and Eugine (or whoever is doing the block downvoting) is on a personal mission to destroy progressive views on this website. However, this is a very specific accusation and I'd like to see more evidence supporting it.

Reading through your own posts, you have focused far more on gender than either of the three you mention, and this suggests to me that you have to reconsider your own biases. Sorry, but I feel I have to say this.

Comment author: Adele_L 17 November 2013 04:14:26PM *  4 points [-]

It is evidence of an ideological or even a personality difference, even if it is not the specific issue.

Reading through your own posts, you have focused far more on gender than either of the three you mention, and this suggests to me that you have to reconsider your own biases. Sorry, but I feel I have to say this.

I do not consider this pattern to be anything but very weak evidence. I'm surprised that you noticed this though - I looked through my comments, and I did not see very many comments about gender going back to May.

Comment author: passive_fist 17 November 2013 09:39:47PM 2 points [-]

It is evidence of an ideological or even a personality difference

If by 'it' you mean the comments themselves, I agree. Someone's comments can be taken as evidence of ideological difference. As you said, though, it's probably not the specific issue.

Comment author: Tenoke 17 November 2013 08:15:15AM *  5 points [-]

My block downvoting with a similar pattern started after I made some comments regarding polyamory (but also after the larger thread I made where I ranted that we shouldn't call ourselves a cult) so that kind of fits the pattern.

Edit: Also mine, ialdabaoth and fubarobfusco's comments in this thread seem to have been downvoted by one person at around the same time while not all others were.

Comment author: shminux 19 November 2013 07:05:46PM 3 points [-]

you have all said progressive things about gender

I would be quite surprised if whoever karma-stalked me was pissed off at anything I said about gender issues.

Comment author: Adele_L 19 November 2013 09:30:42PM *  4 points [-]

Well, you complained on October 25th about block downvotes starting over the "last couple of days".

And a few days before, you made these comments, the one linked to in particular strikes me as the sort of thing that might aggravate someone into block downvoting you.

Comment author: shminux 20 November 2013 05:13:46PM 3 points [-]

Huh, you might be right. My point was less about gender issues and more about the symptoms of motivated cognition, but I see your point.

Comment author: Bayeslisk 17 November 2013 06:22:56PM -1 points [-]

I am willing to sacrifice large amounts of karma to test this as someone who cares deeply about both the quality of the LW community and about gender issues, and who experiences significant intangible benefit from cleverly cracking someone's utility function. Should I?

Comment author: Adele_L 17 November 2013 06:26:51PM *  5 points [-]

Publicly admitting this plan is likely to reduce its effectiveness.

Comment author: Lumifer 17 November 2013 11:20:38PM 3 points [-]

I am willing to sacrifice large amounts of karma to test this

I am not quite clear as to how will you test this. Are you saying you will just troll? That doesn't look likely to increase the quality of the forum.

Comment author: Tenoke 17 November 2013 07:52:10PM *  -2 points [-]

I am willing to sacrifice large amounts of karma to test this

Uhm.. you don't have large amounts of karma (I have lost more karma in the block down votes I'm receiving than your total)and as people said announcing your intentions seems counter-productive.