Error comments on The Craft And The Community: The Basics: Apologizing - Less Wrong

0 Post author: Ritalin 23 November 2013 04:55PM

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Comment author: Error 24 November 2013 08:24:52PM *  2 points [-]

Its main message is to insist on the following sequence as everyone's moral responsibility: once you say something that someone perceives as hurtful, you're morally obliged not to "question their feelings", but to perceive that you screwed up, to feel bad, to apologize, and change your behavior so this doesn't happen again.

I didn't get this impression; that is, the impression I got from the video wasn't "you should accept your interlocutor's perspective as the Only True Perspective" but "don't give Weasel Apologies."

Sometimes an apology is socially called for, but the speaker doesn't believe they did anything wrong. The most obvious examples are students (or office workers!) having an argument, in which a teacher or boss demands that one or both parties apologize to each other. Outright refusal may not be an option. A Weasel Apology is likely to result, but is pretty much morally neutral under the circumstances.

The difficulty arises when you have a Bottom Line problem. e.g., your mind should go:

"Did I do something wrong?"

  • Yes. (Apologize.)

  • No. (Don't.)

But sometimes it actually goes:

"Uh oh, I'm supposed to apologize now. Will that make me look like I did something wrong?"

  • Yes. (Well that won't do. Weasel it!)

Note the absence of an actual wrongness-check in the second form. I think this is what the video is actually railing against, IMO justifiably.

But there is a third version:

"Did I do something wrong?"

  • Yes. (Will an apology be used against me?)

    • No. (Apologize.)

    • Yes. (Weasel it.)

  • No. (Is an apology socially called for? )

    • Yes. (Weasel it.)

This actually does have a wrongness-check, but still results in Weasel Apologies. The video does not cover this case. I'm not sure being incomplete is a strike against it, though.

Edited to add: There is an ambiguity here, in that there's a difference between internalizing that you've done something wrong and internalizing the moral system of an accuser. I interpreted the video as talking about #1, but it seems at least a few others interpreted it as #2. Internalization[1] is good to do and bad to weasel out of, assuming whatever you did is wrong according to your moral code. Internalization[2] is shitty to demand, but probably a bad idea to weasel out of too. If it's being demanded for Political Reasons, they're going to notice. Best option is just plain refusal, if possible.

Comment author: Anatoly_Vorobey 24 November 2013 10:58:20PM *  6 points [-]

I didn't get this impression; that is, the impression I got from the video wasn't "you should accept your interlocutor's perspective as the Only True Perspective" but "don't give Weasel Apologies."

Then I believe that you missed it. What you say was in the video (and I mentioned it), but the part about accepting the supposed victim's claims of being hurt as proof that you sinned (your "Only True Perspective" goes a bit too far) is there and is the backbone of the video.

The video's complete list of claims, in a brief form:

  1. You will slip up, but when you've done something crappy, you have a choice: either apologize and regain your awesome, or be a fartbag.
  2. Analogy: I stepped on your toe, you yell in pain, and I blame you for "standing everywhere".
  3. Intent is irrelevant: "I understand you didn't mean to step on their toe, but you still did, and you caused it, so apologize".
  4. Don't blame people for how they feel, blame yourself, you've caused it.
  5. Do feel bad.
  6. When apologizing, don't think you're asking for forgiveness.
  7. Figure out what you did wrong, believe it, understand it, internalize it
  8. Figure out why you did the hurtful things and provide context.
  9. Don't just express sympathy, you have to accept the blame.
  10. Tell people you won't do it again.
  11. Don't think you're losing or that it's a zero-sum game. Apologizing is a sign of strength.
  12. Do in fact change your behavior.

Points 2-4 basically set up the premise that someone's feelings being hurt by your words means you've done something bad and should apologize. You're not allowed to question the appropriateness of those feelings, and you're not allowed to introduce your intent. Your own moral judgement is never mentioned.

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