lmm comments on The Craft And The Community: The Basics: Apologizing - Less Wrong

0 Post author: Ritalin 23 November 2013 04:55PM

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Comment author: lmm 24 November 2013 11:29:58PM 7 points [-]

What are Oppression Olymptics?

People "competing" by claiming they are more oppressed than other people, because of the group they're in.

What is "check your privilege"?

In its worst form, the position that you're not allowed to have a view on an issue (or that any possible view is invalid) because you are not the oppressed party.

I've only started hearing the term "social justice" this November, in relation to Kill la Kill of all things (which, by the way, is insanely awesome), but I know I am pretty committed to the promotion and advancement of gender and racial equality.

Hah. The cluster I think of as SJW would, I'm pretty sure, say you couldn't possibly be committed to the advancement of gender equality if you have a positive view on Kill la Kill.

It is also because I selfishly want to be able to enjoy poetry, flowers, fashion, be a vegetarian, drive an electric car, and, why not, fuck a dude if I feel like it, among many other things, without getting harassed and belittled and found undesirable for it by men and women alike, without it diminishing my social status and getting in the way of me getting things done.

I think that's an inadequate rationalization. As a straight white male who assigns low probability to any of those changing, there is very little selfish benefit in joining the cause - and certainly a social cost to doing so.

Now, this said, I've been faced with embarassing situations as an "ally", where my allies were acting like utter jerks; I call them out on it and move on. The trick is not to be afraid of what the jerks think, to propose one's arguments in a fair-minded way and to stand against unfair-minded arguments, in stark opposition to the "arguments as soldiers" attitude. The fair-minded people will probably know you to be true, and you can only hope that your arguments can somehow get through the jerks' think, irrational, vindictive skulls (if they don't dismiss it outright as "demagogia" or "sophistry").

True enough. But some movements seem to have a high enough concentration of jerks (in your terms) that it's not worth engaging with them. I support at least some kinds of social justice, but I don't think engaging with a social justice movement would be productive.

As for pattern-matching, that's a heuristic that seems hard to avoid when you have little previous information on your interlocutor, and you've had experience before dealing with interlocutors who eventually turned out to be unreceptive jerks from the other side; it can be a very frustrating waste of time and effort and love, and I feel some sympathy for the people who overcomensate in unwelcomingness out of fear of this happening again.

I think the big problem is that it's unacceptable to apply the scientific method. When we find out that one group performs differently on an IQ test (say) from another, even considering the possibility that maybe one group is more intelligent than another is seen as unacceptable; we're expected to start from the axiom that all people are equal, and therefore conclude that the test is biased.

Heck, it's got to the point that many empirical facts are unacceptable. As much as we might wish it were otherwise, race predicts criminality even when we control for every other factor we can think of - but you can't say that openly. (I'm using race as an easy example, but there are similarly unsayable things on sex, sexuality and so forth)

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 25 November 2013 12:51:17AM 6 points [-]

What is "check your privilege"?

In its worst form, the position that you're not allowed to have a view on an issue (or that any possible view is invalid) because you are not the oppressed party.

Another bad form (I'm not going to claim it's worse) is that your privilege means you're not allowed to have any opinion other than the social justice consensus.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 25 November 2013 01:14:56AM 6 points [-]

There's a much saner form that's worth noting, when it is shorthand for "You overlap through at least one of the following categories:heterosexual, male, white, high socioeconomic bracket, and so you are less likely to have personal experience of the sort of problem that is going on here and might not notice when it occurs." This is essentially an issue of an illusion of transparency, in that often members of specific groups have issues that they are more aware of, and the amount of share experience leads to problems of inferential distance.

Essential agreement that the other two meanings are deeply counter-rational. Unfortunately, exactly what someone means by it isn't always clear.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 25 November 2013 02:21:26AM 6 points [-]

You're right about the ignorance part of privilege-- and contrary to SJW, it's quite possible for people in the less privileged categories to be ignorant about at least some of the problems of people in the more privileged categories.

I'd love to find a way to disentangle the ignorance part of the idea of privilege from the power grab, but I haven't figured out how to do it.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 25 November 2013 02:28:15AM *  3 points [-]

My general tactic has been when people use the term to say more or less the version like what you quoted is "problematic" and then explain more or less the ok meaning. Most of the time if you do so, people will be more careful at least for the remainder of the conversation.

On the other hand, at least once when I did so, I was informed that what I was attempting to do was "mansplaining" and "coming from a position of privilege to control what it means to have privilege" and I more or less threw up my hands. I don't know if the individual in question was hopelessly mindkilled or not, but it exceeded my patience level.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 26 November 2013 06:20:54AM *  12 points [-]

I think that "privilege" (in its more reasonable forms) basically refers to a special case of the Typical Mind Fallacy, one where people are prone to dismissing or understating the problems of one group because they don't personally experience them in the same way. For a relatively neutral example, there's this bit in Yvain's post:

I can't deal with noise. If someone's being loud, I can't sleep, I can't study, I can't concentrate, I can't do anything except bang my head against the wall and hope they stop. I once had a noisy housemate. Whenever I asked her to keep it down, she told me I was being oversensitive and should just mellow out. I can't claim total victory here, because she was very neat and kept yelling at me for leaving things out of place, and I told her she needed to just mellow out and you couldn't even tell that there was dust on that dresser anyway. It didn't occur to me then that neatness to her might be as necessary and uncompromisable as quiet was to me, and that this was an actual feature of how our minds processed information rather than just some weird quirk on her part.

I would say that these are pretty much perfect examples of privilege: situations in which the perfectly reasonable problems of one party are completely invisible to the other, to the point that the other cannot even see what the problem is and thinks that the other person is just complaining about nothing.

Similarly, Eliezer has explicitly used the term "metabolic privilege" in pretty much this sense:

The metabolically privileged don't believe in metabolic privilege, since they are able to lose weight by trying! harder! to diet and exercise, and the diet and exercise actually work the way they're supposed to…

So "privilege" is a useful concept, one which has actually already seen use in the LW community. In this context, "check your privilege" is a call to re-evaluate one's assumptions and to take into account the factors which make the situation genuinely problematic for others but a non-problem for you.

Even the "privilege means you're not allowed to have any opinion other than the social justice consensus" sense can be a somewhat reasonable one - there are plausibly positions where people frequently and commonly become guilty of the Typical Mind Fallacy, and where a consensus of the people who've given the issue some thought agrees on this, and people who disagree are likely to just be flat-out wrong. (You could say that it's the SJW version of "read the Sequences".)

A classic SJW example of privilege that I think is justified is the case of sexual harassment of women, where men frequently react to cases of harassment with variations of "I don't see the problem here, if someone did that to me I'd just be flattered". In that case, the fallacy involves an inability to take into account the fact that a behavior that one might consider flattering if it only happened rarely will become unbearable if repeated sufficiently often (obligatory link), and also that men being stronger women creates a sense of accompanying danger that wouldn't be present in the case of women harassing men.

I thought Of Dogs and Lizards was also a nice illustration of these concepts:

This is where things get a bit tricky to understand. Because most examples of social privilege aren’t that straightforward. Let’s take, for example, a basic bit of male privilege:

A man has the privilege of walking past a group of strange women without worrying about being catcalled, or leered at, or having sexual suggestions tossed at him.

A pretty common male response to this point is “that’s a privilege? I would love if a group of women did that to me.”

And that response, right there, is a perfect shining example of male privilege.

To explain how and why, I am going to throw a lengthy metaphor at you. In fact, it may even qualify as parable. Bear with me, because if it makes everything crystal clear, it will be worth the time.

Imagine, if you will, a small house, built someplace cool-ish but not cold, perhaps somewhere in Ohio, and inhabited by a dog and a lizard. The dog is a big dog, something shaggy and nordic, like a Husky or Lapphund – a sled dog, built for the snow. The lizard is small, a little gecko best adapted to living in a muggy rainforest somewhere. Neither have ever lived anywhere else, nor met any other creature; for the purposes of this exercise, this small house is the entirety of their universe.

The dog, much as you might expect, turns on the air conditioning. Really cranks it up, all the time – this dog was bred for hunting moose on the tundra, even the winter here in Ohio is a little warm for his taste. If he can get the house to fifty (that’s ten C, for all you weirdo metric users out there), he’s almost happy.

The gecko can’t do much to control the temperature – she’s got tiny little fingers, she can’t really work the thermostat or turn the dials on the A/C. Sometimes, when there’s an incandescent light nearby, she can curl up near it and pick up some heat that way, but for the most part, most of the time, she just has to live with what the dog chooses. This is, of course, much too cold for her – she’s a gecko. Not only does she have no fur, she’s cold-blooded! The temperature makes her sluggish and sick, and it permeates her entire universe. Maybe here and there she can find small spaces of warmth, but if she ever wants to actually do anything, to eat or watch TV or talk to the dog, she has to move through the cold house.

Now, remember, she’s never known anything else. This is just how the world is – cold and painful and unhealthy for her, even dangerous, and she copes as she knows how. But maybe some small part of her thinks, “hey, it shouldn’t be like this,” some tiny growing seed of rebellion that says who she is right next to a lamp is who she should be all the time. And she and the dog are partners, in a sense, right? They live in this house together, they affect each other, all they’ve got is each other. So one day, she sees the dog messing with the A/C again, and she says, “hey. Dog. Listen, it makes me really cold when you do that.”

The dog kind of looks at her, and shrugs, and keeps turning the dial.

This is not because the dog is a jerk.

This is because the dog has no fucking clue what the lizard even just said.

Consider: he’s a nordic dog in a temperate climate. The word “cold” is completely meaningless to him. He’s never been cold in his entire life. He lives in an environment that is perfectly suited to him, completely aligned with his comfort level, a world he grew up with the tools to survive and control, built right in to the way he was born.

So the lizard tries to explain it to him. She says, “well, hey, how would you like it if I turned the temperature down on you?”

The dog goes, “uh… sounds good to me.”

What she really means, of course, is “how would you like it if I made you cold.” But she can’t make him cold. She doesn’t have the tools, or the power, their shared world is not built in a way that allows it – she simply is not physically capable of doing the same harm to him that he’s doing to her. She could make him feel pain, probably, I’m sure she could stab him with a toothpick or put something nasty in his food or something, but this specific form of pain, he will never, ever understand – it’s not something that can be inflicted on him, given the nature of the world they live in and the way it’s slanted in his favor in this instance. So he doesn’t get what she’s saying to him, and keeps hurting her.

Most privilege is like this.

A straight cisgendered male American, because of who he is and the culture he lives in, does not and cannot feel the stress, creepiness, and outright threat behind a catcall the way a woman can. His upbringing has given him fur and paws big enough to turn the dials and plopped him down in temperate Ohio. When she says “you don’t have to put up with being leered at,” what she means is, “you don’t ever have to be wary of sexual interest.” That’s male privilege. Not so much that something doesn’t happen to men, but that it will never carry the same weight, even if it does.

So what does this mean? And what are we asking you to do, when we say “check your privilege” or “your privilege is showing”?

Well, quite simply, we want you to understand when you have fur. And, by extension, when that means you should listen. See, the dog’s not an asshole just for turning down the temperature. As far as he knows, that’s fine, right? He genuinely cannot feel the pain it causes, he doesn’t even know about it. No one thinks he’s a bad person for totally accidentally doing harm.

Here’s where he becomes an asshole: the minute the gecko says, “look, you’re hurting me,” and he says, “what? No, I’m not. This ‘cold’ stuff doesn’t even exist, I should know, I’ve never felt it. You’re imagining it. It’s not there. It’s fine because of fur, because of paws, because look, you can curl up around this lamp, because sometimes my water dish is too tepid and I just shut up and cope, obviously temperature isn’t this big deal you make it, and you’ve never had to deal with mange anyway, my life is just as hard.”

And then the dog just ignores it. Because he can. That’s the privilege that comes with having fur, with being a dog in Ohio. He doesn’t have to think about it. He doesn’t have to live daily with the cold. He has no idea what he’s talking about, and he will never, ever be forced to learn. He can keep making the lizard miserable until the day they both die, and he will never suffer for it beyond the mild annoyance of her complaining. And she, meanwhile, gets to try not to freeze to death.

Comment author: Lumifer 26 November 2013 04:18:31PM 4 points [-]

privilege: situations in which the perfectly reasonable problems of one party are completely invisible to the other, to the point that the other cannot even see what the problem is and thinks that the other person is just complaining about nothing.

That definition is incomplete without having power mentioned in it.

For example, it's culturally difficult for "straight cisgendered male Americans" to show weakness. It's not a problem for women. Take the stereotypical situation when a couple is lost and the man refuses to ask for directions. The woman is annoyed at him. Can he tell her "check your privilege"?

Even the "privilege means you're not allowed to have any opinion other than the social justice consensus" sense can be a somewhat reasonable one

I strongly disagree. It cannot be.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 26 November 2013 07:27:07PM 3 points [-]

For example, it's culturally difficult for "straight cisgendered male Americans" to show weakness. It's not a problem for women. Take the stereotypical situation when a couple is lost and the man refuses to ask for directions. The woman is annoyed at him. Can he tell her "check your privilege"?

Depends on who you ask. I would say yes, some would say no.

I strongly disagree. It cannot be.

Right, a literal "never allowed to have" cannot be. What I meant to say was that positions that might easily seem like "you are never allowed to have this opinion" might actually be positions of "this position is so likely to be wrong as to not be worth wasting our time with", which can sometimes (though definitely not always) be reasonable.

Comment author: Lumifer 26 November 2013 07:49:55PM 2 points [-]

actually be positions of "this position is so likely to be wrong as to not be worth wasting our time with"

Sure, there are lots of those. But notice the difference in accents: "I think you have no clue to the extent that I am not going to bother and waste my time" -- vs. " You have no right to your opinion", especially if there's an explicit or implicit "because you belong to a privileged class".

Comment author: fubarobfusco 27 November 2013 10:17:05AM *  2 points [-]

What on earth could it possibly mean for you to have (or not have) "a right to your opinion"?

One possibility that occurs to me is that the expression "I have a right to my opinion!" has to do with whether people will give you the last word — it's a claim to power over other people in conversation. Asserting "I have a right to my opinion" is a way of saying, "Shut up! I'm not talking about this with you any more!" Thus, to say "you have no right to your opinion" is a way of saying, "No, I won't shut up; I will go on trying to convince you that you are wrong."

Another possibility is that "I have a right to my opinion!" is a statement that one intends to continue to confidently assert a view which has been undermined by evidence or argument, without acknowledging or responding to the criticism. Thus, to say "you have no right to your opinion" is to say "you are being epistemically rude; stop it."

A third possibility is that "I have a right to my opinion!" is an assertion that some topics are too socially volatile to be exposed to much criticism. This seems to be what people mean when they bring up "the right to your opinion" in matters of religious doctrine. Thus, to say "you have no right to your opinion" is to say "I'm not going to stop publicly debunking your religion just because you don't like me doing it."

Fourth, "I have a right to my opinion!" could be a demand to not be treated worse socially by others on account of one's opinion, even if others may fear that the opinion may lead you to treat them worse. This would seem to be a demand for unilateral disarmament: "I will go on being bigoted against Blues, and I demand that Blues not treat me badly, even if they fear that I will treat them badly." Thus, to say "you have no right to your opinion" is to say "Yes, I am going to treat your opinion as evidence about your character and your future actions, and treat you accordingly."

Lastly, "I have a right to my opinion!" could be an effort to tar one's (nonviolent) critics by associating them with some sort of (violent) censors — an Inquisition, a secret police — and to rally defenders of freedom to attack those critics. Thus, to say "you have no right to your opinion" is to say "I do not pose the kind of threat that you are claiming. You have no business invoking the defense of freedom on your opinion's behalf, since freedom is not threatened. This is not a matter of 'rights'; it is a matter of conversation, argument, and evidence. Stop trying to escalate it into a matter of 'rights'."

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 27 November 2013 03:41:32PM *  2 points [-]

It's also possible that "I have a right to my opinion" can mean "I have a right to enough time to assimilate new information without being told I have to think differently because someone else is sure they're right."

It might be interesting, the next time you come across someone who says "I have a right to my opinion", to ask them what they mean.

Comment author: Lumifer 27 November 2013 03:24:33PM *  1 point [-]

What on earth could it possibly mean for you to have (or not have) "a right to your opinion"?

For a trivial example, it turned out that Larry Summers did not have a right to his opinion about why women are underrepresented in certain fields.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 27 November 2013 06:37:46PM 1 point [-]

After seeing your comment, I went and read what Wikipedia had to say about that incident.

I'd heard about Summers' resignation only at some remove, and only really from bloggers who had opinions on one side or the other on the women-in-science issue. As a result, I hadn't known that there were other contributing factors to Summers' resignation besides that one. It seems that there were — including other conflicts with the faculty ... and a corruption scandal involving Russia's post-Soviet privatization program that led to Harvard paying a $26.5 million settlement to the Federal government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Summers#President_of_Harvard

I guess that goes to show the consequences of getting news from partisan sources. The rest of the story is substantially less exciting to folks who care about the "Social Justice vs. Political Incorrectness" Blue-Green war, though, so it's no surprise it didn't get as much press.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 26 November 2013 08:10:16PM 1 point [-]

Sure. I didn't read the original as a literal quote but rather as a rough characterization of a perceived attitude, so I didn't pay much attention to the details of the exact wording, since I treated it as referring to a set of many different statements that include both of the variants in your comment, as well as others.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 26 November 2013 04:38:39PM *  1 point [-]

Even the "privilege means you're not allowed to have any opinion other than the social justice consensus" sense can be a somewhat reasonable one

I strongly disagree. It cannot be.

Are you simply going to say you disagree with Kaj here on this last part or actually respond to their comment, especially say the end of the sentence you cut off where Kaj said:

there are plausibly positions where people frequently and commonly become guilty of the Typical Mind Fallacy, and where a consensus of the people who've given the issue some thought agrees on this, and people who disagree are likely to just be flat-out wrong. (You could say that it's the SJW version of "read the Sequences".)

Comment author: Lumifer 26 November 2013 06:12:42PM *  4 points [-]

I am going to point out that "you're not allowed to have any other opinion" and "I believe your opinion is wrong because of A, B, and C" are very different statements.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 26 November 2013 06:14:39PM *  1 point [-]

How much depends on what one means by allowed? For example, it isn't unreasonable to say that I shouldn't have an opinion on whether or not sterile neutrinos exist- because I have nowhere near the physics background to remotely understand the question beyond at an extremely basic level.

Comment author: Lumifer 26 November 2013 07:15:45PM 2 points [-]

it isn't unreasonable to say that I shouldn't have an opinion on whether or not sterile neutrinos exist

That depends on who's doing the talking.

It's not unreasonable for you to decide that you shouldn't have an opinion on X until you found out more about X.

When another party tells you that you are not allowed to have an opinion on X the very first issue that pops up is what power/authority does that other party have to decide which opinions you are allowed to have and which not?

CYP doesn't come up in discussions of neutrinos, it comes up in discussion of sociopolitical issues and in that context allowing or not allowing people to have certain opinions has a long and ugly history.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 26 November 2013 08:03:45PM 0 points [-]

When another party tells you that you are not allowed to have an opinion on X the very first issue that pops up is what power/authority does that other party have to decide which opinions you are allowed to have and which not?

Is it similarly true, if another party tells me that the very first issue that pops up under certain circumstances is X, that the very first issue that pops up is what power/authority does that other party have to decide what the very first issue is and isn't?

This seems to me a silly way to treat ordinary discourse.

When you tell me that X is the very first issue to pop up, I take that to mean you're more interested in discussing X than anything else. If someone tells me I shouldn't have an opinion about X, I take that to mean they're not interested in hearing about my opinion. Yes, in both cases they are expressing themselves as though their personal preferences were facts about the world, but I just treat that as a fairly basic rhetorical maneuver to establish their conversation status.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 26 November 2013 07:43:38PM -1 points [-]

When another party tells you that you are not allowed to have an opinion on X the very first issue that pops up is what power/authority does that other party have to decide which opinions you are allowed to have and which not?

I think you may want to see Kaj's comment here, which I think clarifies what is going on.

Comment author: Lumifer 25 November 2013 01:42:48AM 1 point [-]

You overlap through at least one of the following categories:heterosexual, male, white, high socioeconomic bracket

An interesting set. So let's see who doesn't overlap at least one category -- it got to be a lesbian (or at least bi) poor non-white woman.

So everybody who is not a lesbian poor non-white woman (which I would estimate to be 98-99% of the population) is vulnerable to the cry of Check Your Privilege! Interesting...

Comment author: JoshuaZ 25 November 2013 01:46:48AM 0 points [-]

Well, in the sane version this isn't about vulnerability or conversation point scoring/status but actually trying to make an observation.

And in the sane contexts, most of them aren't going to be relevant. If for example, one discussing say voting rights issues, I don't think (sane) people are going to argue that sexual orientation matters, even as race and income might.

Although, if you do want to focus on how narrow it can get, I've also seem to the term in the context of people who are Christian not realizing how uncomfortable people from other religious backgrounds can easily be in parts of the US, and especially how that applies to atheists. But again, I don't think the argument would be made that all the issues are relevant at the same time.

Comment author: Lumifer 25 November 2013 02:20:57AM *  4 points [-]

but actually trying to make an observation.

So, maybe, make it? There is, of course, the trivial point that for any issue there are people who had personal experience with it and people who had not, but "check your privilege" is very much not about personal experiences but about treating people solely as members of a certain class.

There is a reasonable way to put what you're trying to say -- it would go along the lines of "You are making assumptions X, Y, and Z and they don't work in this situation because of A, B, and C and so what you expect to happen doesn't". But "check your privilege" is not that -- it's a shorthand for "sit down, shut up, and feel guilty".

Comment author: JoshuaZ 25 November 2013 02:25:20AM *  1 point [-]

Or it can be shorthand for "You are making a long list of implicit assumptions, and it will take time to go through all of them, but you can conclude from someone who has actually been in the relevant situation that you are wrong about the actual situation on the ground." That's a common enough sentiment in many different contexts where inferential distance matters, and it may help to think in terms of this thread which tried to expand most of those issues in other contexts.

It helps to not try to interpret every statement people who make as the most irrational possible just because you already disagree with them or have seen other irrational aspects that particularly irk you.

Comment author: Lumifer 25 November 2013 02:41:48AM 4 points [-]

Or it can shorthand for "You are making a long list of implicit assumptions, and it will take time to go through all of them, but you can conclude from someone who has actually been in the relevant situation that you are wrong about the actual situation on the ground."

It can. But for me to accept this requires me to grant A LOT of credibility to the speaker.

It helps to not try to interpret every statement people who make as the most irrational possible just because you already disagree with them

Well, we can talk empirics, then. I've had "check your privilege" card pulled on me numerous times. In the great majority of the cases it was done to shut me up and shame me. In the great majority of cases people saying that had zero idea about my personal experiences and were just assuming what it was convenient for them to assume. In most cases this card was pulled when people were badly losing a rational argument.

So while in theory "check your privilege" can mean various things, I am pretty certain about what it means in practice.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 25 November 2013 02:45:39AM 2 points [-]

In most cases this card was pulled when people were badly losing a rational argument.

Inferential distance issues is actually very high on the list of things that can make someone think that someone else is "badly losing" an argument. On at least one occasion I've had someone who was insisting that .9999... !=1 come away from a conversation with me convinced that they had "clearly won".

But your point does have some validity, and if you look back at the original comment you replied to, I agreed with Nancy that it can be used in irrational ways. My point was about the more rational ways people can and do use the term. So what precisely are you trying to argue here?

Comment author: Lumifer 25 November 2013 02:52:16AM 5 points [-]

My point was about the more rational ways people can and do use the term.

My feeling is that the term is irretrievably tainted. I see its use as an ideological marker.

I accept that what it tries to express can be a useful point but this particular phrase by now carries way too much baggage.

Comment author: Anatoly_Vorobey 25 November 2013 03:40:53PM 3 points [-]

If you have interesting examples of such a relatively positive use of "check your privilege", I'd like to see them.

My experience is the same as Lumifer's - I have only seen this phrase used to shut down unwanted opinions or unwanted participants. Theoretically, it could stand for what you said, and I'd love it if it did, but in practice it doesn't seem to happen.

(Interestingly, the same seems to be true about the obnoxious -splaining family: "mansplaining", "cissplaining" etc. That is, I can well imagine their uses that, while rude, seem somewhat justified. But I don't think I've ever actually observed such a justified use; all the uses I've seen were always as a way to attack an opinion based on race/sex/identity of whoever offered it).

Comment author: TheOtherDave 25 November 2013 04:11:03PM 2 points [-]

FWIW, in my social circle it's often used in the first person. As in, "my first response was to dismiss X as completely unnecessary; then I checked my privilege and reconsidered what X might offer to groups G1, G2, and G3." I don't necessarily claim that these sorts of uses are interesting or positive (that's a discussion I don't choose to get into here), but I don't quite see how it involves shutting anyone down.

As for "-splaining", I more often see it used as a way to attack a conversational strategy than directly to attack an opinion... though of course many people will choose to attack a conversational strategy as an indirect way of attacking the opinions being expressed using that strategy, or the individuals expressing them.

Similarly, many people will choose to attack word choices in such an indirect fashion, as well, in order to indirectly attack the opinions being expressed using those words or the individuals expressing them, but that doesn't mean it's inappropriate to challenge inappropriate word choices.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 26 November 2013 06:15:03PM 1 point [-]

What is "check your privilege"?

In its worst form, the position that you're not allowed to have a view on an issue (or that any possible view is invalid) because you are not the oppressed party.

How about in its best form?

Comment author: TheOtherDave 26 November 2013 08:14:31PM *  4 points [-]

That when I have advantages you don't, I am less likely to notice the problems in our shared environment that my advantages compensate for than you are, and therefore when you discuss a problem in our shared environment that I don't experience, I ought not treat my own experience as definitive on the matter.

EDIT: When used in the second person imperative specifically, as here, it carries the additional implication that the person to whom it is addressed is violating that normative rule.

Comment author: pragmatist 26 November 2013 09:59:19PM 1 point [-]

As much as we might wish it were otherwise, race predicts criminality even when we control for every other factor we can think of - but you can't say that openly.

For real? That surprises me. Do you have a link to the relevant empirical research?

Comment author: lmm 26 November 2013 10:05:29PM 1 point [-]

Saw it in a number of threads here but I didn't keep the links, sorry.

Comment author: bramflakes 27 November 2013 06:53:19PM 0 points [-]

I often see this cited but I've never gone through and checked the validity myself.

If you take the blogging equivalent of a wiki-walk through the HBD-sphere you'll come across other data.