TheOtherDave comments on AALWA: Ask any LessWronger anything - Less Wrong

28 Post author: Will_Newsome 12 January 2014 02:18AM

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Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 January 2014 08:44:34PM 1 point [-]

(nods) OK. Accepting that claim as true, I agree that you should endorse wireheading.

(Also that you should endorse having everyone in the world suffer for the rest of their lives after your death, in exchange for you getting a tuna fish sandwich right now, because hey, a tuna fish sandwich is better than nothing.)

Do you believe that nobody else in the world "terminally" cares about the well-being of others?

Comment author: blacktrance 14 January 2014 08:55:13PM -1 points [-]

you should endorse having everyone in the world suffer for the rest of their lives after your death, in exchange for you getting a tuna fish sandwich right now, because hey, a tuna fish sandwich is better than nothing

No, because I care (instrumentally) about the well-being of others in the future as well, and knowing that they'll be tortured, especially because of me, would reduce my happiness now by significantly more than a tuna sandwich would increase it.

Do you believe that nobody else in the world "terminally" cares about the well-being of others?

That's a difficult question to answer because of the difficulties surrounding what it means for someone to care. People's current values can change in response to introspection or empirical information - and not just instrumental values, but seemingly terminal values as well. This makes me question whether their seemingly terminal values were actually their terminal values to begin with. Certainly, people believe that they terminally care about the well-being of others, and if believing that you care qualifies as actually caring, then yes, they do care. But I don't think that someone who'd experience ideal wireheading would like anything else more.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 January 2014 09:12:34PM 0 points [-]

I care (instrumentally) about the well-being of others in the future

What is the terminal goal which the well-being of people after your death achieves?

knowing that they'll be tortured

Oh, sure, you shouldn't endorse knowing about it. But it would be best, by your lights, if I set things up that way in order to give you a tuna-fish sandwich, and kept you in ignorance. And you should agree to that in principle... right?

This makes me question whether their seemingly terminal values were actually their terminal values to begin with.

(nods) In the face of that uncertainty, how confident are you that your seemingly terminal values are actually your terminal values?

I don't think that someone who'd experience ideal wireheading would like anything else more.

(nods) I'm inclined to agree.

Comment author: blacktrance 14 January 2014 09:29:56PM -1 points [-]

What is the terminal goal which the well-being of people after your death achieves?

Knowing that the people I care about will have a good life after I'm gone contributes to my current happiness.

But it would be best, by your lights, if I set things up that way in order to give you a tuna-fish sandwich, and kept you in ignorance. And you should agree to that in principle... right?

No, because I also care about having true beliefs. I cannot endorse being tricked.

In the face of that uncertainty, how confident are you that your seemingly terminal values are actually your terminal values?

Given the amount of introspection I've done, having discussed this with others, etc, I'm very highly confident that my seemingly terminal values actually are my terminal values.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 January 2014 09:56:15PM *  0 points [-]

No, because I also care about having true beliefs. I cannot endorse being tricked.

No trickery involved. There's simply a fact about the world of which you're unaware. There's an Vast number of such facts, what's one more?

Comment author: blacktrance 14 January 2014 11:24:50PM -1 points [-]

I mean, I can't endorse myself as being better off not knowing something rather than knowing it.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 15 January 2014 01:17:08AM 0 points [-]

Even if not-knowing that thing makes you happier?

Comment author: blacktrance 15 January 2014 01:49:46AM -1 points [-]
Comment author: TheOtherDave 15 January 2014 01:59:09AM 1 point [-]

I'm not asking whether you can. I'm asking whether you endorse knowing things that you would be happier not-knowing.

Comment author: blacktrance 15 January 2014 03:41:56AM 0 points [-]

If something would affect me if I knew about it, I would prefer to know about it so I can do something about it if I can. I wouldn't genuinely care about the people I care about if I would rather not know about their suffering.