V_V comments on Tell Culture - Less Wrong

109 Post author: BrienneYudkowsky 18 January 2014 08:13PM

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Comment author: V_V 31 January 2014 08:29:38PM 2 points [-]

there doesn't seem to be any obvious negative feedback to keep the balance stable.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 31 January 2014 10:49:13PM *  0 points [-]

First off, you said it was unstable, which means there would have to be positive feedback to make it UN-stable.

Secondly, it seems to me that there is a source of negative feedback in that if people want to be able to express stronger preferences themselves, they might tolerate stronger preferences expressed from others.

Edited to Add Clarification:

We are attempting to calibrate the social cost of expressing strong preferences. The strength of preferences expressed will vary in normal encounters due to actual variance of preferences, variance in peoples' habits of how to express those preferences, and variance in details of delivery.

If you would like to be freer to express your preferences more strongly, you can dial back the social costs you personally impose on others for expressing strong preferences. If they shift up their expressed preferences in response, then either you may as well or they are being hypocritical.

Conversely, if you think others are expressing preferences rather too strongly, first back off the strength of your own expressed preferences towards the desired level and then begin imposing more social costs on strong expressions of preferences.

Either do this gradually so people hardly notice, or out in the open, negotiated. Both options seem fairly intuitive and natural to me, though of course either one will itself impose social costs. Social skills help a lot in mitigating these costs.

Comment author: V_V 01 February 2014 09:19:23AM 0 points [-]

First off, you said it was unstable, which means there would have to be positive feedback to make it UN-stable.

You don't need a positive feedback to have instability.

Secondly, it seems to me that there is a source of negative feedback in that if people want to be able to express stronger preferences themselves, they might tolerate stronger preferences expressed from others.

Which means that there is an incentive to overstate preferences.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 01 February 2014 08:49:26PM 0 points [-]

You don't need a positive feedback to have instability.

Yes you do. Like, rigid pendulum at the top of its swing, F = +kx. That's positive feedback. I suppose you can get around this requirement with discrete timesteps or other hackery, but classically speaking positive feedback <-> instability.

Which means that there is an incentive to overstate preferences.

... differentially so, from a starting point of understated preferences, so that's a correcting change.

Comment author: V_V 02 February 2014 01:49:19AM 0 points [-]

classically speaking positive feedback <-> instability.

an unbiased random walk sufficies.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 02 February 2014 04:13:06PM *  2 points [-]

Okay, so that's the definition of 'unstable' you were using. You've now taken care of the nitpick and left the main thrust of the argument unaddressed.

(edited for spelling)

Comment author: V_V 02 February 2014 06:04:36PM 0 points [-]

Can you rephrase the the main thrust of the argument?

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 03 February 2014 02:50:47PM 0 points [-]

All right. To keep it from ending up at the leaf of this back-and-forth, I'll edit-to-add it earlier on.