Lumifer comments on 2013 Survey Results - Less Wrong

74 Post author: Yvain 19 January 2014 02:51AM

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Comment author: Lumifer 29 January 2014 05:13:16PM 0 points [-]

Well, given that Charlie indeed genuinely holds that preference, then no he is not wrong to hold that preference.

I am confused. Did I misunderstand you or did you change your mind?

Earlier you said that "should" kind of questions have single correct answers (which means that other answers are wrong). A "preference" is more or less the same thing as a "value" in this context, and you staked out a strong position:

I reject your notion of a strict fact-value distinction: I posit to you that all statements are either reducible to factual matters or else they are meaningless as a matter of logical necessity. ... but questions about morality ... should ... be answered in a rational and factual manner all the same.

Since statements of facts can be correct or wrong and you said there is no "fact-value distinction", then values (and preferences) can be correct or wrong as well. However in the parent post you say

I don't even know what it would mean for a preference to be wrong.

If you have a coherent position in all this, I don't see it.

Comment author: Sophronius 30 January 2014 06:03:49PM *  1 point [-]

I think you misunderstood me. Of course I don't mean that the terms "facts" and "values" represent the same thing. Saying that a preference itself is wrong is nonsense in the same way that claiming that a piece of cheese is wrong is nonsensical. It's a category error. When I say I reject a strict fact-value dichotomy I mean that I reject the notion that statements regarding values should somehow be treated differently from statements regarding facts, in the same way that I reject the notion of faith inhabiting a separate magistrate from science (i.e. special pleading). So my position is that when someone makes a moral claim such as "don't murder", they better be able to reduce that to factual statements about reality or else they are talking nonsense.

For example, "sex is sinful!" usually reduces to "I think my god doesn't like sex", which is nonsense because there is no such thing. On the other hand, if someone says "Stealing is bad!", that can be reduced to the claim that allowing theft is harmful to society (in a number of observable ways), which I would agree with. As such I am perfectly comfortable labelling some moral claims as valid and some as nonsense.

Comment author: Lumifer 30 January 2014 06:37:29PM 1 point [-]

I don't see how this sentence

Saying that a preference itself is wrong is nonsense in the same way that claiming that a piece of cheese is wrong is nonsensical. It's a category error.

is compatible with this sentence

I reject the notion that statements regarding values should somehow be treated differently from statements regarding facts

Comment author: Sophronius 31 January 2014 11:13:18AM *  1 point [-]

I am distinguishing between X and statements regarding X. The statement "Cheese is wrong" is nonsensical. The statement "it's nonsensical to say cheese is wrong" is not nonsensical. Values and facts are not the same, but statements regarding values and facts should be treated the same way.

Similarly: Faith and Science are not the same thing. Nonetheless, I reject the notion that claims based on faith should be treated any differently from scientific claims.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 01 February 2014 03:44:52AM 0 points [-]

Similarly: Faith and Science are not the same thing. Nonetheless, I reject the notion that claims based on faith should be treated any differently from scientific claims.

Do you also reject the notion that claims about mathematics and science should be treated differently?

Comment author: Sophronius 01 February 2014 10:03:20AM 0 points [-]

In the general sense that all claims must abide by the usual requirements of validity and soundness of logic, sure.

In fact, you might say that mathematics is really just a very pure form of logic, while science deals with more murky, more complicated matters. But the essential principle is the same: You better make sure that the output follows logically from the input, or else you're not doing it right.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 01 February 2014 10:57:56PM 0 points [-]

In the general sense that all claims must abide by the usual requirements of validity and soundness of logic, sure.

My point is that what constitutes "validity" and "soundness of logic" differs between the two domains.