Prismattic comments on Polling Thread - Less Wrong

12 Post author: Gunnar_Zarncke 22 January 2014 09:14PM

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Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 22 January 2014 09:16:23PM *  0 points [-]

I got the idea for this from two recent comments: Team Red/Team Blue and my feedback for ialdabaoth) so I will start with a poll for the former:

Submitting...

Comment author: Prismattic 23 January 2014 05:25:17AM *  6 points [-]

I hesitate to ask this clarification because I don't want debate to take over the thread -- feel free to ignore this if it seems likely to have a poor cost-benefit ratio.

It is my impression that team red seems to allow for qualitative variance among males in mating behavior ("alphas" v "betas", dominance v. prestige behavior, etc.) but expects that all women dance to basically the same biological piper. My own experience suggests that some women behave just as team red predicts, and some women do not. This leaves me a bit puzzled how to answer this question. On the one hand, team red is probably describing something real. On the other hand, I think there is qualitative variance in women's mating instincts (not sure if I would go so far as to say "individualism"), and that men who do not follow team red's advice can still succeed with the "right" women.

Is that answer you would consider "parts of both"? In my personal behavior, I'm clearly on Team Blue....

Comment author: Ishaan 23 January 2014 06:28:48PM *  10 points [-]

Within the Redpill ideology, the female equivalent of alpha/beta is slut/prude. They claim that just like women have short term relationships with "alphas" and settle down with "betas", men don't mind having flings with "sluts" but would rather marry a sexually inexperienced woman. Conversely, they claim that while "betas" give out attention indiscriminately and fail to acquire sex (the "friend zone"), sluts give out sex indiscriminately but in the end fail to acquire commitment.

(The above does not reflect my own views and I personally think that the language they use is in very poor taste. I also think idea as a whole is wrong about gender and human instincts, but bears just enough superficial similarity to how some humans behave under some conditions to be compelling to some people. )

Comment author: Lumifer 23 January 2014 06:51:29PM *  4 points [-]

Within the Redpill ideology, the female equivalent of alpha/beta is slut/prude.

I can't speak for the Redpill ideology, but in my experience the alpha/beta terminology is well applicable to both sexes.

I know some women who are (very clearly to me) alpha females in the direct terms of status and domination, and I know some women who are beta females and are cooperative, preferring to be led, even submissive. That distinction doesn't correlate with the slut/prude dichotomy.

In more general terms, the Blue and the Red positions are described in the {grand}parent post look like extremes on a continuous spectrum to me. The problem with the Red team is that it treats individuals as fungible: provide the right signals and it doesn't matter who your partner is. The problem with the Blue team is that it ignores the underlying mechanisms -- you just click together, it's magic, don't ask how it works.

For example, it seems reasonable to me that for a successful relationship people do need to "click" together (Blue), but whether they do click is determined partly by what they are, what image they present, and what signals they send out (Red).

Comment author: Ishaan 23 January 2014 07:21:08PM *  7 points [-]

in my experience

Sure, it's quite possible that people have a stable preference for dominant/submissive behavior in social interactions. I think that's a fairly uncontroversial thing to posit.

The problem with the Blue team is that it ignores the underlying mechanisms

That's probably because the "Blue" side is not actually a monolithic, self-aware school of thought. "Blue" is an exonym created by Red to describe the amalgam of conventional wisdom and pop-feminism to which they construct themselves as opposing (analogous to how "Cathedral" is not a monolithic, self aware group, but an exonym created by reactionaries). In reality, pop-feminism and conventional wisdom doesn't often bother delving into evo-psych and thinking about sexual strategy...so the seeming lack of specificity inherent in "click" is not in opposition to anyone, but simply the result of not having adopted a position on the matter.

The problem with the Red team is that it treats individuals as fungible: provide the right signals and it doesn't matter who your partner is

Well, personally I think the additional, and more pressing problem with Red is that it is factually mistaken in its conclusions about what sorts of signals one should send out and how these thing work.

it seems reasonable to me that for a successful relationship people do need to "click" together (Blue), but whether they do click is determined partly by what they are, what image they present, and what signals they send out (Red)

What you described there is not a spectrum from Blue to Red. Blue to Red would look something like "attraction is about signalling affection and kindness" vs. "attraction is about signalling dominance and demand".

What you describe is a spectrum from Black to Red, where Black is the absence of ideas about attraction and sexual dynamics -"something" happens and it just clicks - whereas Red/Blue is a specific position on what that "something" is. The difficulty with distinguishing Blue and Black arises because the whole construct described by the term Blue is partly real conventional wisdom and partly a Red straw-man.

And there's no reason to a priori assume that Red or Blue is actually correct* about what general signals you aught to send out to induce attraction in the average, generalized case, nor is there reason to assume that the truth is anywhere in the middle of these two. There might be a third, Green position which captures the fact of the matter.

Comment author: Lumifer 23 January 2014 07:40:41PM *  0 points [-]

In reality, pop-feminism and conventional wisdom doesn't often bother delving into evo-psych and thinking about sexual strategy

That doesn't seem to be so. Conventional wisdom has TONS of heuristics about sexual strategy. The real problem is that these heuristics are just a bunch of separate pieces of advice so they tend to contradict each other and in general lack any coherence or structure. In that sense I agree that the Blues have not "adopted a position on the matter", but instead they propose a large variety of inconsistent positions.

Red is ... factually mistaken in its conclusions about what sorts of signals one should send out and how these thing work.

I think it's pretty obvious that this depends. It seems to me that there is a subset of people for whom the Red approach works well (there is some self-selection here as well) and there is a subset of people for whom it doesn't. I agree that the Red claims about their "truths" being biologically hardwired and universal to all humans are... excessive :-)

what general signals you aught to send out to induce attraction in the average, generalized case

That's not a good way to formulate a problem. Any specific individual isn't much interested in the "average, generalized case", s/he has more or less specific preferences, and using any techniques selects for people who respond to these techniques.

To give a crude example, flashing a Rolex, keys to a Lamborghini, or talking about your private jet is an excellent signal to "induce attraction" from a very specific kind of females. If you're interested in this specific kind it's a good technique. If you're not, it's not.

Comment author: Ishaan 23 January 2014 07:54:19PM -2 points [-]

It seems to me that there is a subset of people for whom the Red approach works well...I agree that the Red claims about their "truths" being biologically hardwired and universal to all humans are... excessive

Sure, and there is a subset of people for whom Blue conclusions works well, and for whom Green conclusions work well. Just because the conclusions work for some people in some places, doesn't mean the premises are actually sound. Following bad premises will eventually lead to suboptimal outcomes.

Accepting false premises based on conclusions that by chance happen to be instrumentally useful in some restricted cases is considered dangerous for very good reason.

Comment author: Lumifer 23 January 2014 08:09:09PM *  5 points [-]

I am not particularly interested in debating whether the Red map matches the territory well or not, but note that in your post you make strong claims -- that Red techniques succeed only "by chance" and even that temporary success "will eventually lead to suboptimal outcomes". Beware of the Typical Mind fallacy.

Comment author: ESRogs 24 January 2014 01:54:37AM 0 points [-]

Did the sides in this debate suddenly switch in these last two comments? I thought you were both making really good points above, and then got lost here at the end. :P Oh well, I gave y'all some upvotes.

Comment author: Lumifer 24 January 2014 02:13:03AM 0 points [-]

Did the sides in this debate suddenly switch in these last two comments?

Maybe? :-) I think we were discussing the issue, not defending fixed positions.

Comment author: Ishaan 26 January 2014 06:01:59AM *  -1 points [-]

My last comment was referring to things in general, rather than the Red/Blue issue

  • L had pointed out that there is a subset of people for whom Red works well

  • I said that Red, Blue, etc... referred to models of reality, and the accuracy models should be judged by the evidence supporting those models, rather than the apparent usefulness of the associated techniques. (Example: If someone said aspirin cured headaches by chasing away evil spirits, we shouldn't take the fact that aspirin cures headaches in a subset of cases as evidence that there are evil spirits being chased away.) I further said that making this mistake would lead to sub-optimal outcomes.

  • L pointed out that what is sub-optimal for me is not necessarily sub-optimal for others.

I also agree with L's assertion that neither of us is defending a fixed position, though I don't think that was the reason for your confusion?

Comment author: Ishaan 26 January 2014 05:48:15AM *  -1 points [-]

temporary success "will eventually lead to suboptimal outcomes". Beware of the Typical Mind fallacy.

Just to clarify, by "sub-optimal outcomes" I didn't mean that you'll end up unhappy in your romantic relationships (which I agree would be a case of typical mind fallacy). I was referring to sub-optimal outcomes in domains unrelated to sexual strategy.

Also to clarify, the "by chance" refers to the general case of theories which come up with techniques that sometimes work for reasons that may or may not be what the theory says, not to Red/Blue specifically.

To give a crude example, flashing a Rolex, keys to a Lamborghini, or talking about your private jet is an excellent signal to "induce attraction" from a very specific kind of females. If you're interested in this specific kind it's a good technique. If you're not, it's not.

If you mistakenly model all women as identical to this specific subset and behave accordingly, you'll create sub-optimal outcomes in a global sense. (For example: What does having this model mean for how you treat women colleagues, coworkers, or students? How you treat daughters?)...note that the Red I've experienced does advocate that its model is true in the general case, rather than for a specific subset (they even have a name for it - "AWALT - All Women Are Like That")

Of course, you could still argue that "optimal outcome" in this domain is specific to who you are...but typical mind fallacy doesn't matter with respect to terminal preferences and values. I don't want a society where people are treated that way, especially not from a young age.

But in general, stepping back from this issue specifically...I just think it's bad epistemic hygiene to judge models by the apparent usefulness of the techniques which they suggest, especially when the fact that the technique is effective was well known before the model was generated.

Comment author: Lumifer 26 January 2014 06:28:46AM 3 points [-]

.I just think it's bad epistemic hygiene to judge models by the apparent usefulness of the techniques which they suggest

I disagree. I think that judging models by the success of their forecasts in empirical reality is precisely how they should be evaluated.

Comment author: jaime2000 24 January 2014 12:11:16AM *  6 points [-]

There are at least 5 reasons why Team Red is not fond of this argument (often deriding it with the acronym NAWALT).

  1. Taken literally, it is seen as pedantic, much like the guy who insists that every statement of the form "men are stronger than women" be followed by the suffix "on average". Of course in a planet of 3 billion women there are going to be some exceptions; that's not an interesting observation.
  2. If women have less biological variability than men (see Coscott's poll above), we would expect a single mating behavior model to have greater predictive power among females than among males.
  3. The prior probability that a particular woman does not follow the Team Red model is not seen as good. Powerful evidence is needed to overcome it.
  4. The man who brings up this point is often talking about his sweetheart, and will thus be unable to analyse the relevant evidence in an un-biased fashion.
  5. Because the consequences of assuming a woman does not follow the Team Red model when she does are so terrible, a man is better off provisionally assuming that all women operate under the Team Red model.
Comment author: Prismattic 24 January 2014 04:04:06AM *  6 points [-]

FWIW, reading that first link has made me less sympathetic to Team Red. I'm assuming you consider that blog to be a strong exemplar for the team or you wouldn't have chosen it; to me it reads as dripping with contempt for women and makes me take the idea that Team Red is engaged in dispassionate analysis less seriously.

On point 1, to clarify -- my experience (and no, I'm not literally talking just about my own relationships) is that we're talking about about at least a substantial minority, not rare exceptions. I also don't think the behaviors in question are scalar; it doesn't make sense to talk about them "on average" unless you're making a fairly uninteresting point about the modal woman, where then non-modal women are qualitatively different.

On point 2, again, the reason women are thought to vary less than men is that they have two copies of the x chromosome. It's a principle roughly similar to the difference between rolling 2d6 and 1d12; you expect a lower standard deviation in the former. And again, there's no reason for this to predict that women would be homogenous in their mating strategies.

Point 3 is basically assuming the conclusion.

Point 4. Not in this case.

Point 5. The comment you link to contains numerous inaccuracies about US divorce law, as is pointed out in that thread. Aside from that, what Lumifer said.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 25 January 2014 04:23:35AM -1 points [-]

On point 2, again, the reason women are thought to vary less than men is that they have two copies of the x chromosome.

The reason women are thought to vary less than men is because that's what nearly all the statistics say. There is a fairly straightforward ev-psych explanation for this. As for the mechanism, there is no consensus on it and it's not at all clear that the mechanism you describe is the only (or even main) one.

Comment author: Prismattic 25 January 2014 05:08:56AM 1 point [-]

The reason women are thought to vary less than men is because that's what nearly all the statistics say.

The only statistics I've actually seen addressing sex differences in standard deviations from the mean are IQ, height, weight, and life expectancy. Do you have links to studies from this perspective on other traits?

There is a fairly straightforward ev-psych explanation for this.

Without disputing the fact that evolutionary psychology may correctly explain some things, the problem with ev-psych exlanations is that they can explain anything. Just as you can finance pundit diametrically opposed stock market data and they'll find some way to fit both sets to their theory, and armchair evolutionary psychologist can explain any behavior in ev-pysch terms, correct or not. Being able to offer a mechanism is, in my view, rather important for corroboration.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 25 January 2014 05:48:56AM 0 points [-]

the problem with ev-psych exlanations is that they can explain anything.

Um, no. Yes it's possible to rationalize anything if one is creative enough, this isn't limited to ev-psych, but just as some arguments are better then others, some ev-psych explanations are better then others, and this one is pretty straightforward: namely since the number of children an individual female can have is much more limited then an individual male, it makes sense for females to use less risky, i.e., lower variance, strategies. Hence, we should expect males to have a higher variance in most traits unless there is some reason for that particular trait to be selected otherwise.

Being able to offer a mechanism is, in my view, rather important for corroboration.

Um, in fact in this case a single mechanism would be evidence against the ev-psych explanation, which predicts evolution to arrange this for each trait in whatever way it happens to stumble upon.

Comment author: Lumifer 25 January 2014 06:17:03AM 0 points [-]

some ev-psych explanations are better then others

That may or may not be so, but ev-psych explanations are no more than post factum just-so stories, nothing but handwaving. They are useful to humans because humans have a need to have things explained, but they are not science.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 25 January 2014 08:15:43PM *  -1 points [-]

Honestly, your comment appears to consist of a bunch of non-sequiturs. In case I'm missing something could you explain whether you think this is equally true of any evolutionary explanation. If not what's so special about ev-psych?

Comment author: Lumifer 26 January 2014 02:36:41AM 1 point [-]

whether you think this is equally true of any evolutionary explanation.

Basically, yes, "evolutionary explanations" are narratives and not science.

Comment author: [deleted] 24 January 2014 10:23:26AM 4 points [-]

Taken literally, it is seen as pedantic, much like the guy who insists that every statement of the form "men are stronger than women" be followed by the suffix "on average". Of course in a planet of 3 billion women there are going to be some exceptions; that's not an interesting observation.

One thing I've noticed is that, whereas zero-article plurals in English are usually taken to only refer to central elements of a category (“ducks lay eggs” even though male ones don't) in descriptive statements, they often aren't in normative statements (say “ducks aren't allowed here”). Therefore, claims like “women are X; therefore, women shouldn't be allowed to do Y”, insofar as “women are X” would normally be taken to refer to typical women and “women shouldn't be allowed to do Y” would normally be taken to refer to all women, sound a lot like fallacies of equivocation to me.

Comment author: jaime2000 24 January 2014 12:31:16PM *  2 points [-]

Therefore, claims like “women are X; therefore, women shouldn't be allowed to do Y”, insofar as “women are X” would normally be taken to refer to typical women and “women shouldn't be allowed to do Y” would normally be taken to refer to all women, sound a lot like fallacies of equivocation to me.

Or maybe the claimers do not believe that every rare exception warrants a deontological obligation to create an entire legal/social/institutional framework to acommodate it, regardless of consequences such as horrible inefficiency, toxic social pathologies, or the abandonment of vitally important Schelling fences (I am reminded of a comment on Steve Sailer's blog: "The military is too male. I don't have a joke, I'm just really in awe of that phrase. I'm thinking about the length of a journey that a culture must undertake in order for that to stop sounding crazy.")

Comment author: [deleted] 24 January 2014 04:55:20PM *  0 points [-]

If that's their argument, I'd rather they stated that explicitly, rather than relying on the ambiguity of generic plurals.

(And in certain cases I can't see what's wrong with just using the same legal/social/institutional framework that already exists for men. “After all, we are a university, not a bath house.”)

Comment author: Lumifer 24 January 2014 02:22:32AM 1 point [-]

Because the consequences of assuming a woman does not follow the Team Red model when she does are so terrible, a man is better off provisionally assuming that all women operate under the Team Red model.

The consequences you linked to are exactly the same for assuming a woman follows the Team Red model when in fact she does not.

Comment author: [deleted] 24 January 2014 10:25:23AM 1 point [-]

Refusing to marry a woman who wouldn't divorce you anyway? I can see that consequences of doing that are also bad, but “exactly the same” sounds like a stretch.

Comment author: Lumifer 24 January 2014 03:39:45PM 0 points [-]

No, failing to sustain a satisfying relationship because you are giving your wife what you assume she should want, except that she actually doesn't.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 24 January 2014 10:02:39AM 1 point [-]

My own experience suggests that some women behave just as team red predicts, and some women do not.

Just adding a data point that I have a similar experience. Some women are like textbook examples of the Team Red theory. Other women are not. Some seem to fit the model partially.

Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 23 January 2014 07:26:00AM 0 points [-]

some women behave just as team red predicts, and some women do not.

I also already wondered if there is an analogue to the Alpha/Beta distinction in women.

Comment author: BarbaraB 24 January 2014 05:09:51PM 1 point [-]

I also already wondered if there is an analogue to the Alpha/Beta distinction in women.

There definitely are alpha and beta women, but it is not about slut / prude dilemma.

Imagine a group of young people discussing what to do, for instance which movie to see. If an alpha woman says, she wants to see Titanic, suddenly several men want to see Titanic, even though it seems disproportionate, if we have known those men for longer and are aware they do not generally like this type of films. Then a beta, or rather omega women says, she wants to see Matrix and is ignored.

What makes an alpha woman become alpha ? Confidence certainly helps, there is an analogy to PUA teachings. Women magazines recommend that all the time. Alpha woman probably does not behave in so strongly dominant manner, as is suggested by PUA for men. But still, she is somewhat dominant. I guess so. You tell me, boys. Beauty helps a lot, too, although there is anecdotal evidence, that bad looks can be overcome.

Now I start feeling lost as I am writing this, so I am leaving my theory incomplete.

Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 24 January 2014 05:55:34PM *  0 points [-]

No. That doesn't sound right. We are no looking for Alpha<->Omega i.e. graduation of success at dominance.

We are looking at genuinely desireable (for men) but orthogonal properties in woman.

Men: Alpha = Capability to control others, Beta = capability to provide and care for children

Women: Alpha = Beauty?, Capability to influence others?, Beta = Health? Practical intelligence?

Comment author: Moss_Piglet 25 January 2014 02:04:44AM -1 points [-]

"Genuinely desirable" seems like the problem here, in that it's conflating base sexual attraction with a more pragmatic evaluation of someone's prospects.

Beta males certainly have many admirable qualities; they're reliable productive and civil, usually friendly and loyal as well. But those qualities, while again being very important, are simply not attractive.

Alpha males, on the other hand, are really quite a menace. The Dark Triad traits which make them attractive also mean they are shiftless and poor contributors to society, at least for the most part.

Hence the pattern of "Alpha fucks, Beta bucks." Women want to get the Alpha but will, if forced to by circumstances, trade sex to Betas for resources / security.

In that context, female "Betas" would be the low-risk women men settle for reluctantly while "Alphas" would be high-risk women who are highly sought after.

Comment author: BarbaraB 26 February 2014 03:24:49PM 0 points [-]

Any examples ? Even fictional evidence ?

Comment author: Lumifer 24 January 2014 06:00:39PM -1 points [-]

We are looking at genuinely desireable (for men) properties but orthogonal properties in woman.

Can you rephrase? I don't understand what this means.

Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 25 January 2014 12:22:47AM 0 points [-]

Basis is the interpretation of Alpha/Beta citend by Viliam_Bur from e.g. here: http://marriedmansexlife.com/take-the-red-pill/alpha-and-beta-male-traits/ Where Alpha and Beta traits are orthogonal and both independently desirable (not Alpha good, Beta bad).

I am am correspondingly looking for alike orthogonal traits in women that are both independently desirable for men.

Candidate womens traits could be:

  • Beauty, Health
  • Practical intelligence
  • Ability and willingness to care for and foster offspring.
  • Capability to influence others (corresponding to male Alpha trait)
  • Sexual willingsness

The questions is: Are these actually clustered into two orthogonal features? I cannot see such a clustering. And I also see no clear evopsych reason for it.

Comment author: Lumifer 25 January 2014 02:07:04AM 4 points [-]

Ah, I see.

Well, I can come up with pairs of orthogonal traits, but I don't know why would you call them Alpha and Beta. These terms are pretty solidly associated with dominance/status.

But if you want to make up an orthogonal pair, sure: Alpha = sexiness, ability to turn heads on the street, good in bed, bombshell. Beta = keeping house, being a good mother, a good cook.

The parallel is that Alpha qualities make you noticed and attract potential mates while Beta qualities keep them over the long term.

Comment author: ChristianKl 24 January 2014 12:08:32AM 0 points [-]

In popular culture there the which get's often cited as a analogue to PUA practices. It contains such rules as:
"2. Don't Talk to a Man First"
5. Don't Call Him and Rarely Return His Calls
6. Always End Phone Calls First"

There are also other cultural difference between woman. In the social justice warrior camp you find individuals who argue that any physical touch from a stranger that isn't explicitly announced to be welcome is inappropriate.

If you go in a Yoga class, I think you find plenty of woman who don't have a huge problem with physical touch provided it's done in an aware manner. Those woman care much more for emotions and how it makes them feel than for following mental rules about what kind of touch is allowed in what circumstances.

They totally believe that they should be legally able to hire an employee based on the advice of a tarot reading or intuition instead of a specific intellectual analysis of the merits that a person has.

But I don't know how many of that type are active on Lesswrong.

Comment author: Prismattic 24 January 2014 04:13:53AM 2 points [-]
  1. Always End Phone Calls First"

For game-theoretic reasons, nobody can actually follow this strategy. The equilibrium would end up as

ring ring Man: "Hi" Woman: "Bye."