V_V comments on White Lies - Less Wrong

38 Post author: ChrisHallquist 08 February 2014 01:20AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (893)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Alicorn 08 February 2014 04:44:38PM -2 points [-]

I find being generally known to be unwilling to lie highly useful in many situations. Less than a week ago I spontaneously volunteered a compliment to someone who politely thanked me, only to then double-take and remark that she thought that I wouldn't have said it if I hadn't meant it. Consequentialists who think that consequentialists should be able to solve the precommitment problem and be effectively honest nonetheless, in real life, cite my deontological prohibition on lying as a good reason to trust me. I am fairly good at omission, and have successfully avoided outing closeted people of my acquaintance who make that preference known to me, though I never felt the need to go through a similar period myself.

Arbitrary people are not obligated to trust me to handle the truth correctly. If for some reason I'm giving the impression that I'm the equivalent of a Nazi at the door or a homophobic parent, I see no reason from their perspective that they should confess to me these secrets even if I ask. This does not mean that we will be friends if I learn that this has been happening. There are plenty of things people might choose to do for reasonable or even unavoidable reasons that mean we will not be friends.

This post makes me less interested in inviting you over for dinner again. What has to happen in your head for you to be willing to come to my house and eat food I cook and participate in charming conversation and then blithely slash our tires if we ask the wrong question because you think we're going to become hysterical or behave immorally should we gain access to information or be told that we cannot have it? Why does that sound like a welcoming environment you'd like to visit, with us on such a supposed hair trigger about mere true facts? Why should you sound like a guest I'd prefer when you say this? Whatever it is, I don't like or want it closer to me. You may make that tradeoff, but imploring the people around you to "accept" others' "right" to lie to them seems like a kind of fucked-up way to attempt to cheat the tradeoff.

Comment author: V_V 08 February 2014 08:18:10PM *  18 points [-]

This post makes me less interested in inviting you over for dinner again. What has to happen in your head for you to be willing to come to my house and eat food I cook and participate in charming conversation and then blithely slash our tires if we ask the wrong question because you think we're going to become hysterical or behave immorally should we gain access to information or be told that we cannot have it? Why does that sound like a welcoming environment you'd like to visit, with us on such a supposed hair trigger about mere true facts?

Not really my business, but a reaction like this may give people an incentive to lie to you.

Comment author: ChristianKl 09 February 2014 12:11:53AM 6 points [-]

Not really my business, but a reaction like this may give people an incentive to lie to you.

I think that reaction is walking her talk. She could have changed her preference for inviting him over for dinner silently. Being truthful about her position is an example of being radically honest.

Comment author: David_Gerard 10 February 2014 08:26:03AM 3 points [-]

That doesn't, however, make the response incorrect.

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 February 2014 11:54:21AM 0 points [-]

It depends on her reputation for being good at detecting when people lie to her.

If she has a reputation for being good at it and openly makes it known that she punishes people for lying to her, people will less likely lie to her. She only has a problem if people believe that she can't effectively punish people for lying to her because she doesn't spot the lies.

Comment author: Alicorn 08 February 2014 08:56:04PM 6 points [-]

It doesn't make sense to adopt a policy where a person sharing information about what it is like to interact with them must never affect how likely you are to interact with them. If someone tells me they've taken up smoking, they have contracted tuberculosis, they have decided that punching people in the arm is affectionate behavior, etc., then it's kind of them to warn me and they could achieve short-term gains by deceiving me instead until I inevitably notice, but I will not reward the kindness of the warning with my company. The case of lying recurses here where the other examples don't, but my goal is not, "make sure that people who have a tendency to lie don't lie about having that tendency". It's "don't hang out with people who are going to lie to me, like, at all".

Comment author: V_V 09 February 2014 01:23:11AM 20 points [-]

It's "don't hang out with people who are going to lie to me, like, at all".

Good luck with that.