Open Thread for February 18-24 2014

4 Post author: eggman 19 February 2014 12:57PM

If it's worth saying, but not worth its own post (even in Discussion), then it goes here.

Comments (454)

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Comment author: NancyLebovitz 25 February 2014 02:20:26AM 2 points [-]

Another academic hoax

120 gibberish papers were in journals for up to 5 years. They were found as a result of a test for one kind of gibberish.created by a program called SCIgen.

Comment author: CronoDAS 25 February 2014 01:24:51AM 2 points [-]

Dilbert, on cryonics.

Comment author: eggman 24 February 2014 06:18:09AM *  18 points [-]

I just want to thank all of you, as both individuals, and as a community, for being a decent place for discourse. In the last few months, I've been actively engaging with Less Wrong more frequently. Prior to that, I mostly tried asking for opinions on an issue I wanted analyzed on my Facebook. On Facebook, there has been typically been one person writing something like 'ha, this is a strange question! [insert terrible joke'here]. Other than that, radio silence.

On Less Wrong, typical responses are people not thinking I'm weird because I want to analyze stuff outside of the classroom, or question things outside of a meeting dedicated to airing one's skepticism. On Less Wrong, typical responses to my queries are correcting me directly, without beating around the bush, or fearing of offending me. All of you ask me to clarify my thinking when it's confused. When you cannot provide an academic citation, you seem to try to extract what most relevant information you can from the anecdotes from your personal experiences. I find this greatly refreshing.

I created this open thread to ask a specific question, and then I asked some more. Even just from this open thread, the gratification I received from being taken seriously has made me eager to ask more questions, and read other threads in discussion. Reading responses to posters besides myself, and further responses to my comments, have made me feel the samey way. For all I know, there are big problems with Less Wrong to be fixed. However, I'm surprised I found somewhere this non-awful on the Internet at all. So, thanks.

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 25 February 2014 09:32:28PM *  3 points [-]

Many people I know report having much lower-quality experiences on Facebook than mine. The algorithm for improving the quality of the Facebook experience is fairly straightforward: if someone posts content you don't want to see, hide them. If someone makes comments on your statuses you don't want, unfriend them. Repeat. At some point you may need to find new friends, or at least follows.

Comment author: shminux 24 February 2014 04:16:25PM 2 points [-]

PhD comics explains Higgs (and quantum physics in general).

Comment author: Tedav 23 February 2014 08:36:36PM 2 points [-]

Is anyone else bothered by the word "opposite"?

It has many different usages, but there are two in particular that bother me: "The opposite of hot is cold" "The opposite of red is green" Opposite of A is [something that appears to be on the other side of a spectrum from A]

"The opposite of hot is not-hot" "The opposite of red is not-red"
Opposite of A is ~A

These two usages really ought not to be assigned to the same word. Does anyone know if there are simple ways to unambiguously use one meaning and not the other that already exist in English?

(Basically, are there two words/phrases foo and bar so that one could say "The foo of hot is cold, but the bar of hot is not-hot")

Comment author: ChristianKl 23 February 2014 09:19:31PM 5 points [-]

The antonym of hot is cold.

The negation of hot is not-hot.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 23 February 2014 09:14:12PM 2 points [-]

I sometimes use "negation of X" to refer to the logical operator NOT-X.

The other-side-of-a-continuum relationship I don't have a single word for. I might say that the "complement" of green is red, but that's specific to color. I often use "opposite" when I want a generic term here, with the understanding that I'm using it colloquially.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 23 February 2014 08:57:11PM 1 point [-]

"Complement" is sort of a word for the second one.

Comment author: PECOS-9 24 February 2014 01:26:50AM *  1 point [-]

I think complement can mean both too. E.g. red and green are complementary colors, whereas the sets "red" and "not-red" are complements.

Comment author: Tedav 24 February 2014 02:48:02AM 1 point [-]

My sense of the word complement is that if two things are complements, they sum to 1, or some equivalent.

A is the complement of ~A because P(A or ~A) = 1

Red and green are considered to be complementary colors because together they contain all primary colors of pigments. [although, that is based on the societal understanding that the primary colors are Red, Yellow and Blue. This is actually incorrect. For pigments, the primary colors are really Magenta, Yellow, and Cyan. For light, they are Red, Green, and Blue.]

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 25 February 2014 09:35:00PM 0 points [-]

Not any more than I'm bothered by a million other ambiguous words. (Also, as a mathematician, I'm comforted by the fact that there are many precise notions of "opposite" in mathematics.)

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 22 February 2014 05:36:20PM 2 points [-]

How do I get Philadelphia on the nearest meetups list?

Comment author: Nisan 22 February 2014 05:44:29PM 3 points [-]

Add a meetup with Philadelphia in the location field?

Comment author: pianoforte611 22 February 2014 05:09:46AM *  8 points [-]

Arthur Chu was discussed here previously for his success with Jeopardy using careful scholarship to develop strategies that he knew had worked in the past for other people.

In the comments section here he makes a much more extreme case against LessWrong's policy of not censoring ideas than Apophemi did a while back. Frankly he scares me*. But on a more concrete note, he makes a number of claims I find disturbing:

1) Certain ideas/world-views (he targets Reaction and scientific racism) are evil and therefore must be opposed at all costs even if it means using dishonest arguments to defeat them.

2) The forces that oppose social justice (capitalism, systematic oppression) don't play nice, so in order to overcome those forces it is necessary to get your hands dirty as well.

3) Sitting around considering arguments that are evil (he really hates scientific racism) legitimizes them giving them power.

4) Carefully considering arguments accomplishes nothing in contrast to what social justice movement is doing which at least is making progress. Hence considering arguments is contrary to the idea of rationality as winning. (This seems extreme, I hope I am misreading him)

5) Under consequentialism, if intellectual dishonesty and rhetoric (the dark arts) are capable of advancing the causes of people that are good and opposing the forces of evil, then intellectual dishonesty and rhetoric are good.

There is some redundancy there but whatever.

*I mean this literally, I am actually physically frightened.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 23 February 2014 09:01:50PM 4 points [-]

I suppose this does mean that no-one should believe any claims he makes before checking them first.

Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2014 12:19:14AM 11 points [-]

I mean this literally, I am actually physically frightened.

Why are you physically frightened of a random Internet blowhard?

Comment author: bogus 22 February 2014 06:02:59PM *  5 points [-]

The clearest statement of Chu view (from the comment thread) seems to be: "As a very tentative general heuristic ... major ideologies that attempt to validate some form of the just-world fallacy should be terminated with extreme prejudice." He correctly names sexism ("Men have all the power because they're just better!") and racism ("Europeans have all the power because they're just better!") as examples.

But the obvious problem is, if you buy the neo-reactionary model of how "the Cathedral" works, then social-justice progressivism is a clear-cut example of a massive just-world-fallacy in action! What's more, I'd hardly expect Moldbug or other neo-reactionaries to take the view that "the world is inherently fair" seriously, even as hidden, low-level implication. And whether Moldbug's worldview is right about the Cathedral is an empirical question that would seem to require serious, rational investigation, not just faith-based political commitment.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 01:02:24AM *  1 point [-]

The clearest statement of Chu view (from the comment thread) seems to be: "As a very tentative general heuristic ... major ideologies that attempt to validate some form of the just-world fallacy should be terminated with extreme prejudice." He correctly names sexism ("Men have all the power because they're just better!") and racism ("Europeans have all the power because they're just better!") as examples.

This is not just world fallacy, in fact for specific values of "better" these are empirical statements. Or would he (and/or you) consider statements along the lines of "I defeated him in the fight because I was stronger" an example of "just world fallacy". What about "being rational helps me achieve my goals"?

Comment author: bogus 23 February 2014 02:46:34AM *  3 points [-]

This is not just world fallacy, in fact for specific values of "better" these are empirical statements.

No, the "just world fallacy" is a belief that the world always reaches morally "fair" outcomes. So "better" here has to mean that they deserve such outcomes in a moral sense. My guess is that many people here would reject these claims and find them quite objectionable, but it's hard to deny that some followers of the Dark Enlightenment (albeit perhaps a minority) seem to be motivated by them. The just world fallacy (in addition to other biases, such as ingroup tribalism) provides one plausible explanation of this.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 02:51:15AM *  1 point [-]

No, the "just world fallacy" is a belief that the world always reaches morally "fair" outcomes. So "better" here has to mean that they deserve such outcomes in a moral sense.

Ok, so which moral theory are we using to make that determination?

Someone who behaves more rationally is more likely to achieve his goals. Do you consider this a "fair" or "unfair" outcome?

Comment author: shminux 21 February 2014 11:31:02PM 5 points [-]

Word of God: SMBC's Zach Weiner does indeed read Eliezer's work, if not this forum.

Comment author: lukeprog 21 February 2014 08:28:22PM 5 points [-]

Daniel Bell's introduction to The Year 2000 : A Framework for Speculation on the Next Thirty-Three Years (1969) provides a handy half-prolegomenon for what Robin Hanson called "serious futurism":

More than forty years ago, Kegan Paul in England and E.P. Dutton in New York published a series of small books, about eighty in number, entitled Today and Tomorrow, in which some outstanding minds of the time made predictions about the future. The titles were romantic and metaphorical, and this provided a clue to the style and contents of the series...

What is striking about these volumes is their fanciful character, the personal and even prejudiced judgments, the airy and even comical tone, as if the idea of speculating about the future had a somewhat absurd but pleasant quality — in effect, a lack of seriousness... in no sense were these books mean to be anything more than "opinion"...

The uneven competence in the series is apparent as well in the writings of H.G. Wells, the man who inspired all these efforts. In his earlier book Anticipations... Wells predicted some social changes with startling accuracy, and fell flat on his face with others. The reason is that Wells was one of the first writers to see the importance of technology and to derive social consequences from specific innovations... But this reliance on technology gave a mechanistic cast to Wells' thinking, and led him to make some horrendous errors as well...

Reviewing the prophets of the past, one finds lacking in almost all of them — at least in their sociological predictions — any notion of how society hangs together, how its parts are related to one another, which elements are more susceptible to change than others and, equally important, any sense of method. They are not systematic, and they have no awareness of the nature of social systems... If there is a decisive difference between the future studies that are now under way and those of the past, it consists in a growing sophistication about methodology and an effort to define the boundaries... of social systems that come into contact with each other.

Comment author: gwern 20 February 2014 10:20:38PM *  19 points [-]

LWers may find this interesting: someone may've finally figured out how to build a fully distributed prediction market (including distributed judging) on top of blockchains, dubbing it 'Truthcoin'.

The key idea is how judgment of a prediction market is carried out: holders of truthcoins submit encrypted votes 1/0 on every outstanding market, and rather than a simple majority vote, they're weighted by how well they mirror the overall consensus (across all markets they voted on) and paid out a share of trading fees based on that weight. This punishes deviation from the majority and reminds me of Bayesian truth serum.

Clever. I haven't been too impressed with the Bitcoin betting sites I've seen too far (some of them like Bets of Bitcoin are just atrocious), but this seems like a fully decentralized design. The problem is it's so complex that I don't see anyone implementing it anytime soon.

Comment author: ChristianKl 24 February 2014 09:24:50AM 1 point [-]

The problem is it's so complex that I don't see anyone implementing it anytime soon.

It seems to be a straightforward way to implement a new altcoin.

If someone pays 200,000$ for two man years of programmer time to implement this and then makes 10 million$ with the altcoin that seems to me like a valid business model.

Comment author: Gurkenglas 21 February 2014 04:13:04AM 1 point [-]

Wouldn't evil people farm consensus karma via specifically constructed bets?

Comment author: gwern 21 February 2014 04:04:43PM *  2 points [-]

Hm, how would that work? If you make 1000 nonsense markets and the majority of people refuse to vote on your nonsense bets, then their votes are recorded as 0.5s/neutrals, and you can't diverge from them without being punished, which eliminates any gain from 'good karma' (and if you likewise are neutral, you've spent a lot of money for no particular point).

Comment author: Metus 21 February 2014 01:35:35AM 1 point [-]

Though prediction markets have their potential problems, this could be the first in a long series of ever better decentralised prediction markets. I wonder what the legalities will be, similar to how Intrade got into trouble with the US government over regulations regarding commodity derivatives.

Comment author: shminux 20 February 2014 09:23:56PM 6 points [-]

Can one detect intelligence in retrospect?

Let me explain. Let's take the definition of an intelligent agent as an optimizer over possible futures, steering the world toward the preferred one. Now, suppose we look at the world after the optimizer is done. Only one of the many possible worlds, the one steered by the optimizer, is accessible to retrospection. Let's further assume that we have no access to the internals of the optimizer, only to the recorded history. In particular, we cannot rely on it having human-like goals and use pattern-matching to whatever a human would do.

Is there still enough data left to tell with high probability that an intelligent optimizer is at work, and not just a random process? If so, how would one determine that? If not, what hope do we have of detecting an alien intelligence?

Comment author: D_Malik 20 February 2014 10:42:31PM 3 points [-]

Omohundro has a paper on instrumental goals that many/most intelligences would converge on. For instance, they would strive to model themselves, to expand their capabilities, to represent their goals in terms of utility functions, to protect their utility functions against change, etc. None of these are universally true because we can just posit a pathological intelligence whose terminal goal is to not do these things. (And to some extent e.g. humans do in fact behave pathologically like that.)

We can say very little "optimizers over possible futures" in full generality, because that concept can be very broad if you define "optimizer" sufficiently broadly. Is a thermostat an intelligence, with the goal of achieving some temperature? Or consider a rock - we can see it as a mind with the goal of continuing its existence, and thus decides to be hard.

Comment author: NoSuchPlace 20 February 2014 10:35:26PM 1 point [-]

Can one detect intelligence in retrospect?

Let me explain. Let's take the definition of an intelligent agent as an optimizer over possible futures, steering the world toward the preferred one.

Yes, at least some of the time. Evolution fits your definition and we know about that. So if you want examples of how to deduce the existence of an intelligence without knowing its goals ahead of time, you could look at the history of the discovery of evolution.

Also, Eliezer has has written an essay which answers your question, you may want to look at that.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 February 2014 10:18:33PM 1 point [-]

Let's take the definition of an intelligent agent as an optimizer over possible futures, steering the world toward the preferred one.

That's a very low bar for intelligence, it looks more like a definition of life. Most or all living creatures do this. Some pretty simple software would fit the bill, too.

Comment author: shminux 20 February 2014 10:32:24PM 1 point [-]

Yes, the bar is set low intentionally. I would be pretty happy if we could tell if black-box life is detectable. Again, not relying on pattern-matching to the life on earth, such as DNA, oxygenation for energy, methane release, water presence, or whatever else NASA uses to detect life on Mars. Unless, of course one can prove that some of these are necessary for any life.

Comment author: Markas 21 February 2014 05:51:26AM 1 point [-]

I am looking into noise reduction options for sleeping - I'm a side sleeper, and the foam insert earplugs I've been using so far are extremely uncomfortable to sleep on. It is surprisingly hard to find a comprehensive guide for this that's not trying to sell you something. Do any of the sleep hackers around here have suggestions?

(If this is more appropriate for the stupid questions thread, let me know.)

Comment author: amacfie 21 February 2014 07:40:56PM 2 points [-]

I've had success with Mack's soft silicone earplugs.

Comment author: D_Malik 21 February 2014 08:25:18PM *  1 point [-]

I haven't tried this, but you could get a white noise generator, or download a white noise app for your phone, or use http://simplynoise.com/ . Or you could wear a headband over your ears, or (what I do) play ASMR over sleep-compatible headphones.

Comment author: [deleted] 20 February 2014 06:52:09AM *  25 points [-]

The Doctrine of Academic Freedom, Let’s give up on academic freedom in favor of justice from the Harvard Crimson

No academic question is ever “free” from political realities. If our university community opposes racism, sexism, and heterosexism, why should we put up with research that counters our goals simply in the name of “academic freedom”?

Instead, I would like to propose a more rigorous standard: one of “academic justice.” When an academic community observes research promoting or justifying oppression, it should ensure that this research does not continue.

This already describes the reality on the ground, though to see it announced explicitly as a good and noble goal, by the upcoming generation, is disturbing. And people like Steven Pinker let are getting old. I'm now updating my trust for the conclusions of academic institutions and culture when they happen to coincide with their political biases downward further.

Comment author: ESRogs 21 February 2014 09:10:50PM 3 points [-]

I am disturbed to see it announced explicitly as a good and noble goal, by the upcoming generation is concerning.

On the other hand, the most-upvoted comments on the article are encouraging. :)

Comment author: Ishaan 21 February 2014 06:14:52PM *  1 point [-]

Ironically enough, it's somewhat surprising that The Crimson didn't censor this article, as it was bound to attract negative press.

I'm hoping the fact that this is just an opinion piece, and that the article is currently in circulation on the internet as an example of what's wrong with academia, and that all the comments are opposed to it, is a sign that this is just the internet bringing the worst things to my attention, and that such thinking will never actually be reflected in any formal policy...if not, I've got some updating to do.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 22 February 2014 01:18:52AM *  5 points [-]

Well, in many ways what this article describes is already the informal policy in many places.

Also, a lot of the bad ideas currently implemented in universities started out as widely mocked editorials and proposals, for example, the currant moral panic about rapists with its ever widening definition of "rape" and "sexual harassment" and its ever shrinking protections for the accused started out as widely mocked proposals.

Comment author: asr 20 February 2014 07:54:57PM *  14 points [-]

I think "from the Harvard Crimson" is a misleading description.

One of their undergraduate columnists had a very silly column. Undergraduates do that sometimes. Speaking as a former student newspaper columnist, often these columns are a low priority for the authors, and they're thrown together in a hurry the night before they're due. The column might not even represent what the author would think upon reflection, let alone what the editorial board of the Crimson as a whole believes. So I wouldn't read too much into this.

(For non-US readers: The Harvard Crimson is the student-produced newspaper of Harvard University. The editors and writers are generally undergraduates and they don't reflect any sort of institutional viewpoint.)

Comment author: Daniel_Burfoot 21 February 2014 05:43:57PM 3 points [-]

So I wouldn't read too much into this.

Well, the observation is that the Crimson is willing to print crazy left-leaning articles. They are certainly not willing to print crazy right-leaning articles. Or even non-crazy right-leaning articles. That tells you something about the overall sociopolitical climate at the university.

Comment author: [deleted] 22 February 2014 12:18:58AM *  9 points [-]

They are certainly not willing to print... even non-crazy right-leaning articles.

That's not really true. Several of their contributors lean right. A few of one of these contributors' articles:

Now it is certainly true that conservative writers are the minority, just as conservatives are a minority in the college as a whole. But the Crimson doesn't discriminate on the basis of political orientation when approving writers.

Comment author: Daniel_Burfoot 22 February 2014 05:59:03AM 2 points [-]

I feel like those articles are very weak counterevidence to my argument. They're more like token, limp-wristed right-leaning contributions that the Crimson has to trot out every now and then to give the impression that they're impartial.

Comment author: asr 21 February 2014 07:02:48PM *  4 points [-]

Well, the observation is that the Crimson is willing to print crazy left-leaning articles. They are certainly not willing to print crazy right-leaning articles.

Are you sure they don't? I can tell you from personal experience that their peer papers, the Cornell Sun and the Daily Princetonian definitely have some right wing cranks to offset the left-wing ones. For the Sun in particular, I think the political spectrum of opinion columnists was a pretty fair proxy for the campus as a whole. And every so often there's a barnburner of an opinion piece in the Prince about how premarital sex is the devil's work.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 February 2014 07:25:05PM 15 points [-]

announced explicitly as a good and noble goal, by the upcoming generation

Undergrad publications print the craziest shit imaginable and sometimes even mean it. I wouldn't expect them to "think" the same way a few years after graduation, though.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 20 February 2014 01:51:45PM *  20 points [-]

When an academic community observes research promoting or justifying oppression, it should ensure that this research does not continue.

By the way, this is stupid even from the "we only care about the 'good' people (women, black, trans, etc.)" viewpoint, because the consequences sometimes look like this:

1) Someone suggests there could be biological differences between men and women. Angry screams, research abandoned.

2) Medical research done on volunteers (the expendable males) finds a new cure.

3) It appears that the cure works better for men, and may be even harmful for women (because it was never tested on women separately, and no one even dared to suggest it should be). Angry screams again -- unfortunately no reflection of what actually happened; instead the usual scapegoat blamed again.

More meta lessons for the LW audience: The world is entangled, you can't conveniently split it into separate magisteria. If you decide to remove a part of reality from your model, you don't know how much it will cost you: because to properly estimate the cost of X you need to have X in your model.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 22 February 2014 01:17:14AM 10 points [-]

By the way, here is a recent example of just such a bad consequence for women. Basic summery:

1) Latest extreme sport added to olympics.

2) The playing field and obstacles will be the same for men and women; otherwise, it would be sexist and besides its cheaper to only build one arena. (We will of avoid thinking about why we have separate women's and men's competitions.)

3) Women wind up playing on the area designed for men and frequently get seriously injured at much higher rates.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 22 February 2014 08:42:41AM 6 points [-]

Thoughts about having leagues/categories based on measured potential rather than male/female?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 22 February 2014 09:19:48PM 8 points [-]

1) How do you reliably measure potential? You could have leagues based on ability (similar to the way major/minor league baseball works today). But notice that no one cares about the minors.

2) You do realize the practical effect of this in most sports would be that all the levels above amateur would be massively male dominated?

3) In more violent sports you'd have to deal with the cultural taboo against male on female violence. (You could eliminate that taboo, but somehow I'd don't think the feminists would be happy with that outcome.)

4) The feminists are likely to cry bloody sexism over (2) and (3) above.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 25 February 2014 01:58:50AM 3 points [-]

You can't reliably measure potential, though there's been some work on genes and sports.

Weight (and possibly height) classes would be a start. Not the gender issue, but I think there should be an anti-dehydration standard for sports with weight classes.

Comment author: Vulture 20 February 2014 11:08:34PM *  10 points [-]

A side note to your otherwise excellent comment:

"we only care about the 'good' people (women, black, trans, etc.)"

As someone from the other side of the fence, I should warn you that your model of how liberals think about social justice seems to be subtly but significantly flawed. My experience is that virtually no liberals talk or (as far as I can tell) think in terms of "good" vs. "bad" people, or more generally in terms of people's intrinsic moral worth. A more accurate model would probably be something like "we should only be helping the standard 'oppressed' people (women, black, trans, etc.)". The main difference being that real liberals are far more likely to think in terms of combating social forces than in terms of rewarding people based on their merit.

Comment author: James_Miller 21 February 2014 04:08:26PM 15 points [-]

My model of how liberals think, based on teaching at a left wing college, is that liberals find "politically incorrect" views disgusting.

Comment author: Lumifer 21 February 2014 04:23:39PM 8 points [-]

liberals find "politically incorrect" views disgusting.

I would guess this approach is much more female than male.

Comment author: James_Miller 21 February 2014 04:27:51PM 12 points [-]

I do teach at a women's college.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 21 February 2014 09:57:27AM *  14 points [-]

My model is that it's: "we want to help everyone who is suffering" but also: "the only real suffering is the suffering according to our definitions".

Or more precisely: "the suffering according to our definitions influences millions of people, and anything you said (assuming you are not lying, which is kinda dubious, considering you are not one of us) is merely one specific weird exception, which might be an interesting footnote in an academic debate, but... sorry, limited resources".

I understand that with given model of reality, this is the right thing to do. But unfortunately, the model seems to suffer horribly from double-counting the evidence for it and treating everything else (including the whole science, if necessary) as an enemy soldier. A galaxy-sized affective death spiral. -- On the other hand, this is my impression mostly from the internet debates, and the internet debates usually show the darker side of humanity, in any direction, because the evaporative cooling is so much easier there.

(Off-topic: Heh, I feel I'm linking Sequences better than a Jehovah's Witness could quote the Bible. If anyone gets a cultish vibe from this, let me note that I am translating the whole thing these days, and I have just finished the "Politics is the Mindkiller" part, so it's all fresh in my memory.)

Comment author: Vulture 21 February 2014 02:17:17PM 5 points [-]

Okay, your model is better than I thought. Sorry for nitpicking your hyperbole :-)

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 23 February 2014 12:13:33PM 5 points [-]

It's good to sometimes say the obvious things explicitly. (Also, some other person could have said the same thing non-hyperbolically.)

Comment author: [deleted] 03 July 2014 02:04:24PM 0 points [-]

(Off-topic: Heh, I feel I'm linking Sequences better than a Jehovah's Witness could quote the Bible. If anyone gets a cultish vibe from this, let me note that I am translating the whole thing these days, and I have just finished the "Politics is the Mindkiller" part, so it's all fresh in my memory.)

Cultish? No, it's how you signal that you're a rationalist and your readers are rationalists, and they should therefore actually consider what you're saying, rather than dismissing you as some kind of mainstream Traditionally Rational idiot with a snide recitation of "Bro, do you even Bayes?"

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 21 February 2014 06:49:06AM 2 points [-]

I don't think he's surprised to hear that claim. How would you distinguish the hypotheses? Perhaps you should hold the question in mind for a week as you think as a liberal and listen to liberals.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 20 February 2014 09:59:46AM *  6 points [-]

I'm not even sure if the article is serious or just a linkbait.

Going more meta: I think the students should have the right to fire professors whose political opinions they dislike. The customer is always right.

The problem is separating the "customer" aspects of the situation from the "non-customer" aspects, so the customer does not exercise more rights than they should have as a customer. For example in teaching, the student is a customer; in research they are not. Therefore students should have a right to prevent professors from teaching; not necessary university-wide, because other students may have different preferences; they should just have a right to avoid their lessons. But students shouldn't have a right to prevent professors from doing research. As a logical consequence, teaching and research should be separated. Because it seems that having the same person doing both research and teaching is a good idea for various reasons, I would just make both parts optional (and if the professor does less of one part, they have to do more of the other part).

The idea is: students saying "I don't want to hear this" shouldn't affect research. Although the students should have a right not to hear what they don't want to hear. And the university should have a right to choose how much of this "not hearing" is acceptable with getting a diploma there; again, each university should be freee to chose differently.

Comment author: [deleted] 03 July 2014 02:12:30PM 2 points [-]

The idea is: students saying "I don't want to hear this" shouldn't affect research. Although the students should have a right not to hear what they don't want to hear. And the university should have a right to choose how much of this "not hearing" is acceptable with getting a diploma there; again, each university should be freee to chose differently.

I would put it much more simply: students have a right to refuse to attend lecture, and professors have a right to give students a failing grade for doing so. And employers and grad-schools have a right to filter for students who actually learned something at school.

Thus, everything adds up to normality.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 22 February 2014 04:32:59AM 1 point [-]

I'm not even sure if the article is serious or just a linkbait.

Well, googling the author suggests she is serious.

Comment author: asr 20 February 2014 07:52:32PM *  6 points [-]

Going more meta: I think the students should have the right to fire professors whose political opinions they dislike. The customer is always right.

Harvard isn't primarily funded by tuition. The large majority of students receive some aid, and most receive a lot of aid. The real customers are the alumni who build up the endowment. And those people are quite effectively represented in institutional governance, via the board of trustees ("the Harvard Corporation").

I'm also not sure quite how you would envision changing things. The students are perfectly free to take whatever courses and attend whatever lectures they want. However, if they want a Harvard degree, they need to meet the requirements of the College and of their department, and that might mean passing a required course with a professor the student dislikes.

I can't quite picture a "customer is always right" university. I could imagine a system in which a university has no degree requirements that a student would find objectionable, but I don't think the students would want or benefit from such a thing. Part of the signaling value of a degree is that subject experts are attesting that the student has acquired a breadth and depth of knowledge.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 February 2014 08:02:01PM 6 points [-]

I can't quite picture a "customer is always right" university.

That's pretty easy -- imagine a fourth-rate university the only interest of which is extracting as much money from students (and the federal government) as they can.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 21 February 2014 05:40:32AM 1 point [-]

Faint memory-- weren't medieval French universities run by students? I think they hired the professors.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 21 February 2014 05:53:50AM 3 points [-]

I believe you're thinking of medieval Italian universities.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 February 2014 12:08:48PM *  7 points [-]
Comment author: Douglas_Knight 20 February 2014 04:16:55PM 4 points [-]

I found that post pretty confusing. It turns out that it's about control of databases, and i think copyright is a red herring. He wants to run his program over all published papers and find problems with them. He needs permission of the publisher to do this. He claims that his interpretation of the boiler-plate license doesn't allow that. I think he's mistaken and that in any event he could get permission if he asked. What he really wants to do (from other posts on the blog), that he definitely couldn't get permission for, is to synthesize the literature into a database of chemicals; which the publishers won't allow because they do that by hand.

Also, the title (which you didn't quote) is nonsense. There is no legal obstacle to the editor or referee using computers on new papers, which is the usual meaning of "referee." The problem there is getting the editor to try something new and to put in the necessary effort. Maybe it's easier for this guy to run his software on all papers ever written than to convince lots of editors to run it ahead of time, but difficulty is not a legal difficulty. Everyone would love it if these mistakes were caught in the refereeing process, rather than after the fact.

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 20 February 2014 06:13:05PM *  1 point [-]

How do I verify whether the air quality in a room is bad? I'm concerned that being in a particular room is causing me to sneeze.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 February 2014 06:54:29PM 4 points [-]

Well, normally you sneeze (too much) either because the room is too dusty, or because you have a mild allergy to something in that room.

Does the room look dusty? If you don't wipe a horizontal surface, how much dust would accumulate in, say, a week?

The allergy thing is more complicated, but one way to test it would be to take some OTC anti-hystamine and see if that stops your sneezing. If it does you should update towards being allergic to something in that room.

Comment author: drethelin 20 February 2014 06:36:09PM 2 points [-]

You can put an air filter in the room for a while and see if there's a noticeable change. If you want to be scientific about it you can ask a friend to turn it on and off at random while you're out of the room

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 20 February 2014 08:04:08AM *  5 points [-]

Thought this article on relationships was well-written and enlightening: How to Pick Your Life Partner.

Comment author: Sherincall 20 February 2014 04:56:16PM 3 points [-]

While expanding your selection pool has obvious benefits, I think there is a good alternative route with regards to your tiny circle of friends and acquaintances.

Suppose you can easily quantify the partner-compatibility of a person, let's say on a 0-10 scale, probably exponential distribution. The best you can find among your friends is a 6. That's unsatisfactory, so you start searching, and after a while you find an 8, which is satisfactory, and you marry them.

However, this model is flawed: The grades can change over time - both the other person and you can change. These changes are more likely to happen earlier in life, such as during teen years or early twenties. Thus the model would have to be expanded to account for the potential compatibility, or even a function how the compatibility changes with time.

If we were to look at this model, that 6 from high school has a much better potential. In a long term relationship, people effect other people, slowly changing them towards themselves. This process works both ways, so you have two entities slowly pulling each other closer. What can easily happen is that in a few years time that it took to find the 8, you have created an 8. Furthermore, since you were also changed in the process, that 8 might no longer be an 8. It could be a 7, or a 9. It could also have a better rate of change, meaning a potential 10.

I would, however, assume the rate of change slows down as people grow older (I haven't any data to confirm this assumption), meaning a change from a self-made 8 to a natural 8 wouldn't yield much benefits.

To expand on the business metaphor: You are running a business, and you need someone to take the position of CTO. You can look for skilled CTOs, but your existing employees have the advantage of already knowing the company and the business process. No doubt, many external applicants, given two years would be better than any of the existing employees, but how many would be better than existing employee with two extra years of experience as CTO? Basically, you need to plot grade(time) for all applicants, see how long will it take for one of the external ones to beat the employee, and decide whether the loss is worth it.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 20 February 2014 10:47:27AM 6 points [-]

If you’re running a business, conventional wisdom states that you’re a much more effective business owner if you study business in school, create well thought-out business plans, and analyze your business’s performance diligently. But if someone went to school to learn about how to pick a life partner and take part in a healthy relationship, if they charted out a detailed plan of action to find one, and if they kept their progress organized rigorously in a spreadsheet, society says they’re A) an over-rational robot, B) way too concerned about this, and C) a huge weirdo.

No, when it comes to dating, society frowns upon thinking too much about it, instead opting for things like relying on fate, going with your gut, and hoping for the best. The respectable way to meet a life partner is by dumb luck, by bumping into them randomly or being introduced to them from within your little pool.

As the article mentions later, it's not just the society, it's also biology. Well, in the ancient evolutionary environment "your little pool" is all humans that don't try to kill you at the first sight, so it makes sense to find a mate there; and the pool does not change dramatically, so you can pick right now.

if we want to find a happy marriage, we need to think small—we need to look at marriage up close and see that it’s built not out of anything poetic, but out of 20,000 mundane Wednesdays.

No one wants to spend 50 years fake laughing. A life partner doubles as a career/life therapist, and if you don’t respect the way someone thinks, you’re not going to want to tell them your thoughts on work each day, or on anything else interesting that pops into your head, because you won’t really care that much what they have to say about it. Secrets are poison to a relationship, because they form an invisible wall inside the relationship, leaving both people somewhat alone in the world—and besides, who wants to spend 50 years lying or worrying about hiding something?

This is probably also a greater problem now than in the past, because the increasing inferential distances make communication more difficult.

Comment author: eggman 20 February 2014 06:37:59AM *  3 points [-]

Does anyone have heuristics for when it's worthwhile to upvote, or downvote, a post? I've had an account on Less Wrong for a while now, but it's only recently that I've started using it on more than a weekly basis, so I suspect I'll be engaging with this online community more. So, I'm wondering what is the up-and-up on, i.e., courteous method of, upvoting/downvoting. I'm aware that this might be a controversial issue, so let's not use this thread for debates. I'm only looking for useful, or appropriate, heuristics for (understanding) voting I might have missed. For the record, as of this comment, I've never downvoted anyone.

This is what I've surmised so far:

  • Users downvote posts or comments which are about signaling value of their particular monkey tribe. This often seems to be newcomers, or people who don't interact with the Less Wrong community very communally, bragging about who they identify their in-group as. They state things like "I've finally found a community committed to reason. Incidentally, this ideology is totally reasonable, so you should get on board with it. Trust me, I've read lots of stuff about it, so it checks out. It is not unlike [my ideological opponents], who are unreasonable/stupid/crazy/whatever. I hope you guys aren't like [my ideological opponents], because then you're unreasonable, too".

  • Users who, in one way or another, are ignorant of topics the Less Wrong community believes they've already reached a consensus conclusion on in a straightforward, slam-dunk manner, receive downvotes. These types of posts which seem to have an agenda which the Less Wrong community would also find disagreeable seem to be less well-received. Ignorant posts where the submitter seems to be genuinely trying to start, or add to, a conversation in good spirit still get downvoted, but also tend to have comment which attempt to helpfully correct the submitter.

  • Posts, or comments, which are seen as trolling are downvoted. Posts, or comments, which take a meta-contrarian/intellectual-hipster stance, or go against the grain of the majority/plurality opinion(s) on Less Wrong will be volatile, but tend to get more downvotes. A recent post on life-extension and death is an example. An exception to this tendency is if the post, or comment, in question is executed very well.

  • How Less Wrong as a community which polices itself by dishing out downvotes, it works efficiently a majority of the time. By the time I get to wreckage of a flame war to catch the juicy details, there isn't much point to myself as an individual actor dishing out further downvotes.

  • I upvote a comment on at least one of two bases. The first basis is if I believe the comment provides information which answers a question, or clarifies a problem I have. Partial answers and solutions also work as well. This is a proxy for my interlocutor increasing the epistemic quality of the conversation. The second basis is if I believe the comment of my interlocutor provides information which is instrumentally valuable. This is a proxy for instrumental rationality. I also do this for comments in conversations I'm not a part of. If I perceived an inverse of either of the two cases I've presented occurring, I would consider that grounds for downvoting the comment in question.

  • I'm not confident with how to proceed in upvoting posts that already have lots of karma. By the time a post of decent quality already has several upvotes by the time I read it, I tend not to upvote it, so as not to give it undue importance. If I believe a post, or comment, is exceptionally well-written, or -executed, I might upvote it regardless of however many votes it has now to increase its visibility.

  • I'm sometimes worried about my votes being biased in the sense that they go to posts, or comments, which increase the visibility of things I only value personally, rather than being reflective of how much a given post, or comment, increases, or decreases, the quality of the discourse on Less Wrong. I'm especially worried these biases in my voting patterns might be, or could become, unconscious.

So, have I missed anything? Additionally, what are the reasons for, or against, keeping my own record of liked/upvoted, and disliked/downvoted, posts, and comments, hidden?

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 20 February 2014 11:26:24AM *  9 points [-]

There is a lot of noise in voting, so don't overanalyze it. There is a correlation between good comments and upvotes, but unless you get at least -3 on a comment, or perhaps -1 on 5 comments in a row, you should probably just ignore it. Also, upvotes usually mean you did something right, but of course a comment made early in the debate gets more visibility and votes than a comment made late in the debate.

Generally, upvotes and downvotes mean "want more of this" and "want less of this". This is a community about rationality, so you should consider whether the given way of communicating contributes to rationality, or more specifically to building a good rationalist community. Use your own judgement.

Going against the majority opinion... I'd guess it depends on whether the argument brings something new to the discussion. Saying: "you are all wrong because you didn't consider X" (where X is something that makes sense and really wasn't mentioned on LW) will probably be welcome; saying "you are all wrong, because this is against my beliefs / against majority opinion" will not. But here I would expect even more noise than usual.

By the time I get to wreckage of a flame war to catch the juicy details, there isn't much point to myself as an individual actor dishing out further downvotes.

I'm not confident with how to proceed in upvoting posts that already have lots of karma.

I think you should upvote or downvote comments regardless of the karma they already have. If 10 times more people think a comment is awesome (or horrible), it should get 10 times more upvotes (or downvotes). If you worry about someone getting infinitely many downvotes for participating in one stupid flamewar -- they have an option to retract the comments, which stops the voting.

The intuition behind this is approximately that if voting is better than not voting (which based on my experience with web fora I consider obvious) then more voting is better than less voting. Also, some fraction of users will abuse the voting system, so we need more votes from the nice users to balance this. Actually, this is also a reason why the nice users should vote more often.

I'm sometimes worried about my votes being biased in the sense that they go to posts, or comments, which increase the visibility of things I only value personally, rather than being reflective of how much a given post, or comment, increases, or decreases, the quality of the discourse on Less Wrong.

You are a human and to some degree this is inevitable. You should try to do as well as you can, but don't try to reverse stupidity and extract signal from noise. Let's assume that 20% of your votes are biased, but 80% correctly estimate what improves the discourse. How could you improve this ratio by voting less? You can't; because the assumption was that you don't know which votes belong to the 20%. Voting less frequently is equivalent to giving your votes a multiplier 0.5 or 0.1 or maybe 0.01. If you have a reason to believe that you are significantly more biased than an average voter (which is not the same as an average commenter), you should abstain from voting completely; otherwise there is no reason to tune down your voting. The mere fact that you care about this all is an evidence that you should vote.

Comment author: gjm 20 February 2014 10:53:38PM 3 points [-]

I think you should upvote or downvote comments regardless of the karma they already have.

I'm not convinced.

  • Should an unambiguously baddish comment really attract infinitely many downvotes, and an unambiguously goodish one infinitely many upvotes? -- Where "infinitely many" means "potentially a lot, with the number depending on how many people see the comment rather than on its quality".
  • Suppose (perhaps more realistically than my use of the word "infinitely" above would suggest) a typical comment is voted on only a smallish number of times. If a smallish fraction of voters are crazy or stupid or evil, then with "independent voting" (on average) every comment gets a smallish amount of noise in its score, which in practice means that a few comments get scored completely wrong. Whereas with "vote towards what you think is the right score for this comment", provided most of the most recent users to see a comment are sane its score should be sane.

My own practice, for what it's worth, is somewhere intermediate between "vote according to merit, ignoring existing score" and "vote towards what seems like the score merited by the comment's quality", nearer the latter than the former.

Comment author: eggman 20 February 2014 08:08:52PM 1 point [-]

Noted. I will update my voting behavior on this basis. Thanks.

Comment author: shminux 20 February 2014 07:16:59AM 1 point [-]

I can never predict how my comments would be rated, so I gave up on looking for voting criteria and do what feels right at the moment.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 February 2014 12:06:28PM 6 points [-]

I'm bad at predicting how my comments get rated, too. However, funny comments seem to get a lot of upvotes.

I suspect most people are voting on the basis of what they do or don't like, but the community has good enough taste that it works out to a useful feedback system-- or maybe it's just a self-reinforcing hall of mirrors which suits my taste.

Comment author: eggman 20 February 2014 06:15:25AM 3 points [-]

I posted this open thread yesterday because I wanted to ask a question that belonged in an open thread, but the last open thread was only until the date of February 17th. Is there a policy for who posts open threads, or how they're posted? If there is such a policy, does it go for only open threads, or for other special threads as well?

I noticed that different people post the open threads over the course of weeks or months when I was searching for them. I'm guessing that the policy is that if a given user notices there is no open thread for the week in which they would like to post, after searching for it, they create it themselves.

Comment author: Tenoke 20 February 2014 03:07:18PM *  6 points [-]

Is there a policy for who posts open threads, or how they're posted?

No and yes. And I'm sorry but you did it badly (I'm saying this only because you are asking). So for the future:

  1. Open Threads belong in Discussion and not Main.
  2. Open Threads should have the 'open_thread' tag.
  3. There is generally no point in calling the Open thread '...18-24..' when you have created it on the 19th.
Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 February 2014 12:00:53PM *  3 points [-]

I've posted some open threads. So far as I know, there's no policy, just custom.

The closing date on an open thread is an invitation to start a new thread, not a rule against posting to the old thread.

Comment author: palladias 19 February 2014 03:48:49PM 37 points [-]

A simple reframe that helped jumpstart my creativity:

My cookie dough froze in the fridge, so I couldn't pry it out of the bowl to carry with me to bake at a party. I tried to get it out, but didn't succeed, and had basically resigned myself to schlepping the bowl on the metro.

But then I paused and posed the question to myself: "If something important depended on me getting this dough out, what would I try?"

I immediately covered the top of the bowl, ran the base under lukewarm to warm water, popped it out, wrapped it up, and went on my way.

Comment author: Yvain 20 February 2014 08:15:30PM *  26 points [-]

After reading the third paragraph, I had already decided to post the following similar story:

It snowed a few weeks ago and my car was stuck in the driveway. Parts of the wheels had gotten ice/snow kind of frozen/compacted around them. I was breaking up the ice with one of those things you use to break up ice, but a lot of it was too hard and a lot of it was underneath the car and I couldn't get to it. I was pretty close to being late to work. So I thought "I need to make some kind of desperate rationalist effort here, what would HPJEV do?". And I sat and thought about it for five minutes, and I got a big tub, filled it with hot water, and poured it around the wheels. This melted/softened enough of the compacted ice that I was able to break up the rest and make it to work on time.

Then I read your fourth paragraph and saw your story was also about hot water.

I don't know if there's some kind of moral to this episode, like that the most rational solution to a problem always involves hot water, but I guess I'll raise it a little higher on my list of things to think about in various situations.

Comment author: Nornagest 20 February 2014 08:26:33PM 8 points [-]

I don't know if there's some kind of moral to this episode, like that the most rational solution to a problem always involves hot water...

Well, Hufflepuff bones aren't always available.

Comment author: gwern 20 February 2014 10:05:43PM 10 points [-]

But if they were, you could try using them as levers.

Comment author: Brillyant 19 February 2014 05:37:52PM 18 points [-]

I've lost 30 pounds since September 17th, 2013*. Interestingly, I've noticed doing so caused me to lose a lot of faith in LW.

In the midst of my diet, discussion in the comments on this series of posts confounded me. I'm no expert on nutrition or dieting(I do know perhaps more than the average person), but my sense is that I encountered a higher noise-to-signal ratio on the subject here at LW than anywhere else I've looked. There seemed to be all sorts of discussion about everything other than the simple math behind weight loss. Lots of super fascinating stuff—but much of it missing the point, I thought.

I learned a few interesting things during the discussion—which I always seem to do here. But in terms of providing a boost to my instrumental rationality, it didn't help at all. In fact, it's possible LW had a negative impact on my ability to win at dieting and weight management.

I notice this got me wondering about LW's views and discussions about many other things that I know very little about. I feel myself asking "How could I rationally believe LW knows what they are talking about in regard to the Singularity, UFAI, etc. if they seem to spin their wheels so badly on a discussion about something as simple as weight loss?"

I'm interested to hear others' thoughts on this.

Have you ever lost confidence in LW after a similar experience? Maybe something where it seemed to you people were "talking a big game" but failing to apply any of that to actually win in real life?

(*Note: To be clear, I've lost 30 pounds since Sept 17th, but only ~15-18 lbs since my "diet" began on Jan 1, 2014. I'm not really bragging about losing weight—I wish it weren't the case. I injured my neck and could no longer use my primary method of exercise (weightlifting) to stay in shape. After eating poorly and lying around for a couple months, I started—on Jan 1—to do consistent, light treadmill work & light core work, as well as cutting my calorie consumption pretty dramatically.)

Comment author: jsteinhardt 22 February 2014 09:41:58AM 5 points [-]

Have you ever lost confidence in LW after a similar experience? Maybe something where it seemed to you people were "talking a big game" but failing to apply any of that to actually win in real life?

As a stats / machine learning person, a lot of the "Bayesian statistics" talk around here is pretty cringe-inducing. My impresion is that physicists probably feel similarly about "many-worlds" discussions. I think LessWrong unfortunately causes people to believe that being a dilettante is enough to merit a confident opinion on a subject.

Comment author: drethelin 22 February 2014 04:52:36PM 1 point [-]

One of the most annoying things to me about Eliezer is how much is writing style is bombastic and hyperconfident and how it's encouraged here to talk like that despite the entire point of probabilistic reasoning being to NEVER be 100 percent certain of things.

Comment author: chaosmage 20 February 2014 12:16:31PM 3 points [-]

Since your injury was in the neck (generally highly enervated tissue) and it was serious enough to forbid weightlifting, I assume it was quite painful. What painkillers did you take?

This is relevant because many painkillers (including Tramadol, a standard medication for herniated disks) greatly reduce appetite, and the after-effects can linger for weeks after you stop taking them.

Comment author: Brillyant 20 February 2014 02:29:29PM 1 point [-]

Aleve & Advil. No painkillers.

Comment author: chaosmage 20 February 2014 03:06:05PM *  2 points [-]

Both are pain medications, specifically non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, which upset the gastrointestinal tract and are known to cause appetite loss.

I'm not saying you didn't make an effort, but that you had help you were not aware of.

Comment author: hyporational 20 February 2014 03:16:32PM *  1 point [-]

There's a risk of those side effects. That doesn't mean they're caused reliably enough for you to make the conclusion he definitely had help. Lists of side effects don't mean much without probabilities.

If they're caused reliably and you can provide the data I'm interested.

Comment author: Yvain 19 February 2014 10:36:02PM *  28 points [-]

Consider the following story:

I was feeling a little blue. I looked at the psychiatric literature, and they were saying all this weird stuff about neurotrophic factors and cognitive-behavioral therapy. But then that night I had dinner with some friends, went to the gym for an hour, and sure enough I felt a lot better afterwards!

I would have at least three qualms with such an attitude:

First, there are different kinds of low mood. Some differences are obvious; some people are less depressed than others, or depressed for much shorter time periods. But it could also be that there are no visible differences between two people, but that for hidden reasons one person's depression will respond to some quick exercise and social activity, and another person's won't.

Second, even interventions that are known to always work can be hard to task-ify. Exercise is indeed often a very effective treatment for depression, but when you tell a depressed person "just go and exercise", they usually won't do that because they're too depressed. Having a good social support network can be helpful in depression, but depressed people can be unable to make friends because deep down they assume everyone hates them. Part of treating depression is bringing people to the point where they're able to do the simple interventions. If you get a depressed person who does have the motivation to exercise and make friends, great, but it's not a point against psychiatry that they sometimes discuss how to help people who don't.

A third problem is general anti-scientificness. Yeah, sure, you don't need to understand exactly how neurogenesis occurs in order to treat depression. But it's neat to know. And in fact exercise may treat depression by increasing neurotrophic factors, so you're not disagreeing with the scientists, just looking at it from a different angle. And for certain people it might be, in a weird way, sort of inspirational to know the science and help them figure out why they're doing what they're doing. If they want to study it, why complain?

I think most of the same issues generalize to your comment.

I would also add one more, which is that it is generally much easier to lose weight on a diet than to keep the weight off for more than a year or two. For example, of people who lost (hey, look at that!) thirty pounds on a diet, one year later they had on average gained back fifteen of them. Longer followups usually find even more of the weight regained; see for example Mann 2007. So you're declaring something simple before you've even started the hard part.

Comment author: Brillyant 20 February 2014 04:22:04PM 1 point [-]

I like the analogy, because I can personally relate to depression. I don't know that it is a great one, though.

We know very well how to cause weight loss. It's a calorie deficit issue, and we could force it to occur. That is, we can will weight loss.

It has not been my experience that people can will happiness—not even for a short time. They can (sometimes) will themselves to be productive, and smile, and go to work, and even drudge through exercise. But willing happiness is not a possibility I am aware of.

It isn't my argument that we should "force" weight loss, only that we can. We should be as sciency as we can be in order to come up with more convenient and reasonable ways to help be lose weight. I gamified it. I used some LW-ish principles.

Questions:

  • I assume you do not consider depression a choice. That is, depressed people cannot chose to become undepressed. They may choose to engage in behaviors that alleviate depression, but certain people are so severely depressed that they cannot summon the will to even engage in the depression-alleviate behaviors. Is this an accurate summary?

  • If someone's caloric balance were 100% controlled so that they had a 300 kcal daily deficit, what would happen to that persons weight over the course of 30 days? 90 days? 1 year? What would happen to their appetite? Metabolism? BMI? Assume they are given a careful balance adequate nutrients. Assume they are given freedom to exercise and be active to their heart's content. An exact 300 kcal deficit is alwasy 100% enforced. What would result?

Comment author: Yvain 21 February 2014 02:43:06AM *  13 points [-]

I think you've rescued the rule that depressive people can't just decide to feel happy. But by your theory, they should still be able to go to work, maintain all their relationships, and otherwise behave exactly like a non-depressed person in every way. In practice this seems very hard for depressed people and a lot of the burden of depression is effects from not being able to do this. The metaphor that just as this is a hard problem and worthy of scientific attention, so weight loss can be a hard problem and worthy of scientific attention still holds.

But why stick with depression? I could just as easily move to obsessive-compulsive disorder. Can't they just "force" not washing their hands too often? Or social phobia - can't they just "force" themselves to go out and socialize when appropriate?

Probably the best example is substance abuse - can't people just "force" themselves not to drink alcohol? And yet not only do therapy-type interventions like Alcoholics Anonymous appear to work, but purely biological interventions like Vivitrol seem to work as well. I am pretty happy that these exist and the more of them people can think up for weight loss, the better.

It isn't my argument that we should "force" weight loss, only that we can.

I didn't interpret your original point that way. You said "There seemed to be all sorts of discussion about everything other than the simple math behind weight loss. Lots of super fascinating stuff—but much of it missing the point, I thought...they seem to spin their wheels so badly on a discussion about something as simple as weight loss" It sounded to me like you had negative opinions about the tendency to discuss non-forcing strategies for weight loss. Am I misinterpreting?

But my main objection here would be the word "can". This word is useful in everyday speech but horrible in subtle philosophical discussions about willpower because it imports a series of assumptions that are exactly what we should be trying to discuss.

It is written: "It's easy to run a marathon. All you have to do is start running, and not stop until you've gone 26.2 miles." As far as I know this could be correct - whenever I've stopped running before reaching a goal, it hasn't been because my body has literally collapsed, it's been because I felt really tired and uncomfortable and so decided to stop. I guess it's possible that if I could ignore that, my body would literally shut down before the 26.2 mark, but I've never been able to get that far and my bet is neither have you.

So is it true that I "can" run a marathon but I just don't "want to"? My guess is that a lot of how inability works is that when your body is getting upset about something, it makes doing that thing more and more unpleasant until doing it passes beyond anyone's conceivable pain/willpower threshold and that person stops. If that's true, then looking at things in terms of "could have kept running" is going to totally fail to capture what's going on.

This answers your first question.

The answer to your second question is that their body would become upset because it's not getting the calories it needs. It might respond by limiting physical activity, either by making the person involved so tired that they don't exercise as much as they used to, and thus cutting their caloric expenditure by 300. It might decrease invisible metabolic things to make up for some of the deficit, like making the person fidget less and decreasing body temperature. Between these two things it might be able to balance its caloric budget again.

If that didn't happen, in healthy people where everything is working properly it would start making adipose tissue release fat to make up the shortfall (I am going to assume these people's diets are perfectly balanced other than the caloric deficit). I have heard many smart people claim that in some people, this process is deranged, adipose tissue does not release fat effectively, and the body would be forced to go to its backup plan of cannibalizing muscle and vital organs, which over long periods is not compatible with life. I have not investigated this thoroughly enough to see if it is true. In either case they would lose weight.

So by the end of [time period], my current best understanding is that the subjects would either be the same weight, lower weight, or dead, depending on whose theories are correct, what diet they were put on, individual differences, and what the time period was. Sorry I can't be more specific.

Comment author: Brillyant 21 February 2014 03:23:36AM 3 points [-]

But by your theory, they should still be able to go to work, maintain all their relationships, and otherwise behave exactly like a non-depressed person in every way. In practice this seems very hard for depressed people and a lot of the burden of depression is effects from not being able to do this.

I think you missed my point, or I threw it by you poorly. I don't think they "should", I think they sometimes can. I sometimes can, and though I know from LW that not all minds are alike, it's safe to assume I'm also not wholly unique in my depression.

As you go on to point out, there is some baseline threshold for which people cannot will themselves out of depression or other psychological issues, just as there are weight loss diets and exercise programs they cannot succeed at.

To your analogy of the marathon: There is a right answer to whether you can run X miles in Y minutes and not physically injure yourself. I'd imagine the majority of people never come close to knowing that answer because they do not posses the ability to refrain from rationalizing themselves out of the optimal result as discomfort begins during their run. I'm aware that I'm personally really bad at this—my first .5 mile I'm telling myself I'm Usain Bolt; by mile 2 I'm coming up with manifold reasons to stop pushing. No doubt some are good and rational reasons, but others are bullshit that I need only train my mind to recognize as such in order to push through and be successful.

The answer to your second question is that their body would become upset because it's not getting the calories it needs...etc...

That's not really what I was asking. Maybe I asked poorly.

Can you instead imagine a scenario where a controlled calorie deficit was administered to a person where they received a balanced diet with all the nutrients they needed? 300 kcal was arbitrary. Pick any number. Isn't there some number that would be negligible in terms of the utility of its nutritional value and yet provide a calories deficient sufficient to lead to weight loss?

My point was that depression seems to have no such scenario. You cannot engineer a situation to "make" people be happy. Without excess food, or alcohol, you cannot get to obesity or alcohol addiction, right? Depression has no such outside variable.

Comment author: Yvain 21 February 2014 04:17:41AM *  8 points [-]

I think you missed my point, or I threw it by you poorly. I don't think they "should", I think they sometimes can. I sometimes can, and though I know from LW that not all minds are alike, it's safe to assume I'm also not wholly unique in my depression.

I agree that they sometimes can. I also agree people can sometimes lose weight. As far as I was concerned, our disagreement here (if one exists) isn't about whether it's possible in some cases.

Are you willing to agree to a statement like:

"Weight loss is possible in some cases, and in fact very easy in some cases. In other cases it is very hard, bordering in impossible given the marathon-analogy definition of impossible below. This can be negated by heroic measures like locking them in a room where excess food is unavailable and ignoring their appetite and distress, but in the real world you cannot do this. Because of these difficult cases, it is useful to explore the science behind weight loss and come up with more effective strategies.

If so, we agree, but then I'm confused why you were criticizing the Less Wrongers in your original statement. If you don't agree, please let me know which part we disagree about.

To your analogy of the marathon: There is a right answer to whether you can run X miles in Y minutes and not physically injure yourself. I'd imagine the majority of people never come close to knowing that answer because they do not posses the ability to refrain from rationalizing themselves out of the optimal result as discomfort begins during their run. I'm aware that I'm personally really bad at this—my first .5 mile I'm telling myself I'm Usain Bolt; by mile 2 I'm coming up with manifold reasons to stop pushing. No doubt some are good and rational reasons, but others are bullshit that I need only train my mind to recognize as such in order to push through and be successful.

If we are debating the extremely academic point of whether someone with your muscular structure can complete a marathon in X hours, okay. But suppose we find that of a thousand people who in theory are anatomically capable of completing the marathon, zero actually finish the marathon, due to discomfort. If our goal is to get them to successfully complete marathons, what percent of our resources do you think should be invested in proving they are physically capable of doing so right now and exhorting them to do this, versus coming up with things like training schedules and better diets and better shoes that will make it easier for them?

I felt like your original point was a complaint that we are trying the equivalent of coming up with training schedules rather than the equivalent of telling people they should be able to just keep going 26.2 miles unless their legs collapse, whereas I think this is probably a better strategy. Am I interpreting your complaint correctly, and do you disagree that the former strategy is better?

Can you instead imagine a scenario where a controlled calorie deficit was administered to a person where they received a balanced diet with all the nutrients they needed? 300 kcal was arbitrary. Pick any number. Isn't there some number that would be negligible in terms of the utility of its nutritional value and yet provide a calories deficient sufficient to lead to weight loss?

I think we're definitely misunderstanding each other somewhere. I think we may be working off some different assumptions about how the biology here works.

I weigh 185 pounds - plugging this into a metabolism calculator, my weight will stay stable at 2200 calories per day. Suppose I weighed 500 pounds. My weight would stay stable at about 4500 calories per day.

If the 500 pound guy got only 4200 calories per day, it doesn't matter how balanced the diet is or how many nutrients he has, his body has a caloric deficit and doesn't have enough energy to live. Hopefully it takes care of that by burning some of his stored fat. If it can't do that, he's going to be in big trouble.

I may be wrong about this, but I don't think the body can actually operate a a true caloric deficit. It WILL make up the deficit (or die, which also technically resolves the deficit). All it can do is do so in more or less problematic ways. The less problematic ways are things like burning fat. The more problematic ways are things like increasing appetite, decreasing exercise, and catabolizing organs.

I think your question corresponds to "But what if the body did just operate at a caloric deficit?", and I am really getting out of my knowledge comfort zone here but I don't think that's possible. Our analogy to economics here fails - we're not talking money where you can run a loss for a while and just have to worry about the bank coming after you, we're talking thermodynamics where it's physically impossible.

Weight loss is caused not by operating at a caloric deficit per se, but by the body avoiding caloric deficit by burning fat or other bodily tissues.

I could be totally wrong about this.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 21 February 2014 04:51:42PM 2 points [-]

http://skepchick.org/2014/02/the-female-athlete-triad-not-as-fun-as-it-sounds/

Women trying to do the right thing by underfeeding themselves, and being more vulnerable to injury as a result.

Comment author: Brillyant 21 February 2014 05:17:43AM *  4 points [-]

Are you willing to agree to a statement like:

"Weight loss is possible in some cases, and in fact very easy in some cases. In other cases it is very hard, bordering in impossible given the marathon-analogy definition of impossible below. This can be negated by heroic measures like locking them in a room where excess food is unavailable and ignoring their appetite and distress, but in the real world you cannot do this. Because of these difficult cases, it is useful to explore the science behind weight loss and come up with more effective strategies."

Yes, basically. Though I don't know if I like the inclusion of "real" world. It isn't possible to deprive people of excess calories in the practical world, but calories math and weight loss are, as far as I know, a physical law in the real universe.

If so, we agree, but then I'm confused why you were criticizing the Less Wrongers in your original statement.

Since this thread became longer and more involved than I thought, I should go back and find a few examples from the discussion I mention in my original post.

Generally, the discussion seemed to be over-complicating a simple issue. Forgive me if I mentioned this to you already, but I see two distinct discussions in regard to weight loss:

  • 1 - The causal mechanisms that lead to losing weight.

  • 2 - Executing a rational plan with those causal mechanisms in mind.

In my view (I'll look for examples), the issues were conflated, with 1 receiving the majority of debate. I don't think 1 is in need of debate, and I now wonder if people were just looking for a way to hack the causal mechanisms because dieting via 2 is super hard.

I sincerely empathize. With depression, I feel sometimes like people try to suggest all sorts of 2-styled help to me, for instance. They sort of come across like, "Just choose these different behaviors and it will alleviate your depression". In that way, they are telling folks with depression they believe it to be a choice.

Even though I hate it, they are kind of correct. I can't currently do anything to change the causal mechanisms that lead to obesity or depression. I'd like to, but I can't. I gotta do 2 to feel happy. If I can't, I'm gonna be sad, no matter much I pretend I can change 1.

I do think there are hacks for 2. And I'm 100% in favor of exploring them. As I said before, I used many tricks to help my will and motivation while dieting.

But if you want to lose weight, you have to create a calorie deficit. As you go on to say, the body will used stored calories if you don't eat enough. Living that calorie deficit (dieting) can blow. It blew for me. But it was a trade off in order that I could accomplish the task of losing weight. It was necessary to lose weight.

There seems to be a notion with some here at LW that experiencing some hunger or fatigue or less-than-perfect-happy-functionality is a dieting failure mode. It isn't. It is like anything else in life. To your analogy, you don't run faster times by rationalizing about why you can't run faster times. It DOES hurt a bit—even when it is doing no damage to your body—to push through the rationalization. Of course, you can push too hard—in running or in dieting—but I'm not talking about exceeding what is healthy.

To sum up, somebody replied to me (somewhere on here) with an EY quote that said: "I can starve or I can think. I can't do both" I assume it was in the context of dieting.

I think(?) it provides a good summary of the attitude I'm criticizing on LW in regard to dieting. You don't have to starve to diet. But there may be no way in the physical universe to avoid losing some % of your comfort and/or capability during your diet (calorie deficit). You may lose some "think" as you do a little bit of "starve". Just like you lose a little comfort when you do a little bit faster run... and I lose a little time and sleep when I type a little more. :)

I'll look for examples.

Comment author: Yvain 21 February 2014 06:51:30AM *  10 points [-]

I agree that trying to avoid all pain can be a failure mode. But insisting that pain needs to be plowed through can also be a failure mode.

The advice "You should run a marathon by continuing to run even if it hurts" might perhaps be useful as part of a package of different interventions to a runner who's hit some kind of a motivational wall.

But in other situations it is completely inappropriate. For example, suppose a certain runner has a broken leg, but you don't know this and he can't communicate it to you. He just says "It really really hurts when I run!" And you just answer "Well, you need to run through the pain!"

This is an unreasonable request. If you were more clueful, you might make a suggestion like "You should go to a doctor, wait for your broken leg to heal, and then try running later."

And if enough people have broken legs, then promoting the advice "You should run a marathon by continuing to run even when it hurts" is bad advice. Even if we assume that people are still capable of running on broken legs and will not collapse, you are generalizing from your own example to assume that the pain they suffer will be minimal and tolerable, rather than excruciating and intolerable.

If some people have metabolic problems - and right now I'm not claiming they do, just creating a possibility proof, and if you agree it's possible but don't think it's real we can get into that later - then they're like the broken legged people.

Working off Taubes and a few other of the low-carb people, some people's fat cells do not release energy. If they suffer any caloric deficit at all, even 300 calories or whatever you consider a reasonable small amount, their bodies will immediately start starving and catabolizing muscles or, in the worst case, vital organs. There have been examples (though the implications and generalizability are still debated) of people starving to death while weighing three or four hundred pounds, because for some reason their bodies couldn't get to their fat and so were forced to catabolize the liver or heart or something.

(this is what "starving to death" tends to mean in real life; you are so starved that your body breaks down important tissues it can't afford to lose, or builds up too many tissue-breakdown waste products)

Imagine that you are literally starving to death - let's say you've been without food for three months and you're down to the bone like those heart-wrenching photos out of some African countries. You have no energy and can barely move out of your bed. In theory it is possible for you to use willpower to force yourself to continue going on with your daily activities, and not have complaints like "I can't starve and think at the same time". In practice, this seems like a pretty poor plan if you have any other options.

If Taubes et al are correct, fat people who can't mobilize their body's energy reserves are in exactly this situation. Any caloric deficit and they're literally starving, their bodies are trying to figure out whether they should cannibalize the heart or the liver first, and they're not in the mood for continuing to go about daily activities with a smile on their face any more than that African in the famine is.

If your body has fully functional fat metabolism, and you're operating at a caloric deficit by successfully burning off fat, and you tell them "Hey, I feel moderately hungry but really this isn't so hard", you're comparing apples to oranges, the same way as the healthy runner to the runner with the broken leg.

A better solution would be to come up with some way to fix the thing where the body can't mobilize its fat reserves and so either has to stay fat or starve to death. I think this is the project the paleo people are working on: figuring out how to make the body say "Okay, caloric deficit, better burn some fat cells" instead of "Oh no, caloric deficit, better assume I'm starving to death and jack appetite up to eleven while catabolizing all of my muscles".

So is our disagreement that you don't think even Taubes' picture provides a situation in which one should privilege bodyhacking-type solutions over willpower-based solutions, or just that you don't think Taubes' picture is correct?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 21 February 2014 04:54:22PM 3 points [-]

I think some of the fat people who starved to death were suffering from mineral deficiencies.

Comment author: Lumifer 21 February 2014 03:26:49PM *  1 point [-]

If some people have metabolic problems - and right now I'm not claiming they do, just creating a possibility proof, and if you agree it's possible but don't think it's real we can get into that later - then they're like the broken legged people.

In that case the interesting question is whether these people who will literally starve to death before losing fat are exceedingly rare metabolic freaks, nothing more than medical curiosities? If their prevalence is in single digits per million they are just a red herring in the discussion of obesity. I suspect that for pretty much any generally accepted and valid health advice there is some exotic medical condition which makes following this advice a horribly wrong thing for that particular individual.

In general, I think it's highly useful to state that being in energy deficit through (usually) eating less or (less usually) spending more is the only way to lose weight outside of surgery. That's not the final word on the topic, but it should be the first. Otherwise you get equivalents of alcoholics who believe they'll fix their dependency by avoiding one particular kind of alcohol and drinking some other kind.

Yes, there are different ways to maintain energy deficit. In some cases you can just bulldoze through on willpower (or sufficient motivation). In some cases your personal biochemistry will be cooperative and in other cases it will not. Sometimes adjusting your hormonal and metabolic balance will do wonders, sometimes it will do nothing.

People are different. It's complicated :-/

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 23 February 2014 03:51:09PM 1 point [-]

In that case the interesting question is whether these people who will literally starve to death before losing fat are exceedingly rare metabolic freaks, nothing more than medical curiosities? If their prevalence is in single digits per million they are just a red herring in the discussion of obesity. I suspect that for pretty much any generally accepted and valid health advice there is some exotic medical condition which makes following this advice a horribly wrong thing for that particular individual.

People have literally died of that mistake, so there might be some reason to want to avoid making it-- like tracking what' actually happening to people's bodies when they're trying to lose weight.

Also, disorders tend to exist in a range of intensity, so that's another reason to keep track of the effects of dieting-- even if people whose bodies don't release energy from fat enough to avoid death are very rare, people who who have a lot of difficulty with losing fat shouldn't be assumed to be lying, and may be losing more muscle mass than is good for them.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 February 2014 11:58:02AM 2 points [-]

Last I heard, the popular science theory about why it's easier to lose weight than to keep it off is that appetite increases rather than that metabolism slows. Have you heard anything else that looks plausible?

Comment author: TylerJay 20 February 2014 05:18:39PM 6 points [-]

As you would probably imagine, there is a bit of both, though it seems like the hunger portion is more important. Intuitively, any change in metabolic rate is very easily overshadowed in magnitude by increases or decreases in the amount of food eaten. This is why exercising to "burn calories" is ineffective as a means of weight loss. One tall glass of orange juice is equivalent to ~10-15% of your Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) or to ~30 minutes on a treadmill.

This turned out a lot longer than I expected, but hopefully it will be useful to some people.

There are two primary hormones involved in hunger and weight management, Ghrelin and Leptin, with Leptin being arguably more important because of all of its downstream effects and because it is the one we can control with diet and exercise interventions:

(One important thing to know here is that the important thing is the level of hormonal "Activity", not the absolute levels of the hormone. Activity is made up of two factors: How much of the hormone you have and sensitivity to that hormone. For example, obese people with chronically high blood sugar are usually insulin resistant. They have high levels of insulin, but it doesn't do its job properly because they have low sensitivity to insulin. This is caused by chronically high levels of the hormone.)

  1. Ghrelin: Secreted by adipose (fat) tissue, increases hunger. Ghrelin is "entrained" by your eating habits which is why you usually get hungry at about the same time each day. People who are used to eating breakfast feel hungry if they don't, because your body releases Ghrelin when you expect to eat. More fat tissue leads to higher Ghrelin levels on average. (More fat => more hungry) Ghrelin is not known to have "resistance" associated with it.

  2. Leptin: Also secreted by adipose (fat) tissue, decreases hunger. Leptin is also entrained by meal patterns, so having a regular eating schedule is likely effective in controlling excess eating. Low leptin leads to both an increase in hunger and a decrease in metabolic rate. (Less fat => more hungry). Now you would think that being fatter would increase leptin levels as well. It does. Unfortunately, with chronically high levels of leptin, your body adapts and develops "leptin resistance". This means that leptin is not as effective at controlling hunger when you are overweight. Naturally thin people have low levels of leptin, but they are very sensitive to it, so it still does its job at controlling hunger.

These are both hormonal systems, so the body takes longer to come to equilibrium after interventions. Also, according to "set-point" theory, your body will vary the levels of these hormones in order to maintain a certain weight range. Set point is thought to have a strong genetic component and it is unclear whether a person's set point can be changed.

However, there are things that can be done to help get your Leptin system back on track. In the long-term, leptin levels are determined primarily by total fat mass. More fat, more leptin. Less fat, less leptin. If you are overweight, you are likely at least somewhat leptin resistant.

In the short term, leptin is influenced by caloric surplus/deficit and macronutrient ratios (primarily carbohydrates).

So, what does this mean and what can we do about it?

Well, an acute calorie deficit crashes leptin in the short term. This is why you get hungry if you don't eat. Intermittent refeeds (especially carb refeeds) where you eat a caloric surplus one day before going back to your daily deficit can keep your leptin levels slightly higher to help control hunger over the course of a diet.

If you manage to keep a diet going for long enough to lose a significant amount of fat mass, then your natural long-term leptin levels will be lower. This should make you hungrier. However, your leptin sensitivity will also increase until it gets back to a normal baseline. This helps control hunger.

However, research has not shown any way to increase leptin resistance below an individual's natural baseline sensitivity. That means that if your set-point is higher than the weight you've dieted to, your naturally regulated food intake will lead to slowly gaining weight again up to your set point. However, if you get your leptin sensitivity back to normal by losing weight and keeping it off for a while, then the leptin increase caused by acute overeating can help naturally regulate your hunger to help decrease weight gain.

So the takeaways:

Being overweight makes you leptin resistant. This means even though your body is trying to tell you to stop eating, you can't hear it. Once you lose weight and give your body time to adjust, your body is sensitive to its own signals again which can help naturally regulate overeating and metabolism.

Acute caloric deficits increase hunger (and lower metabolism by a small amount) via decreased leptin. Having periodic refeeds where you eat higher calorie and higher carb one day can help keep leptin levels higher during a diet and decrease hunger.

Your body probably has a natural "set-point" that it will try to adjust to once it can hear its own signals and your leptin system works properly. This may be higher than you want. Long-term behavioral modifications to induce entrainment of meal patterns, regular exercise, eating less calorie-dense foods, and intermittent fasting can be helpful in allowing you to maintain a weight below your set point.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 23 February 2014 03:44:55PM 1 point [-]

However, research has not shown any way to increase leptin resistance below an individual's natural baseline sensitivity. That means that if your set-point is higher than the weight you've dieted to, your naturally regulated food intake will lead to slowly gaining weight again up to your set point. However, if you get your leptin sensitivity back to normal by losing weight and keeping it off for a while, then the leptin increase caused by acute overeating can help naturally regulate your hunger to help decrease weight gain.

How long is long enough to increase leptin sensitivity?

Anecdotally, people who keep weight off say it requires constant attention, not that they develop a lower set point.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 February 2014 07:07:17PM *  6 points [-]

it is unclear whether a person's set point can be changed.

It is quite clear that people's set points change over their lifetime -- great many people are trim in their 20s and then succumb to the middle-age spread in their 40s. Looks like one can make an argument that in many (but not all) people their set points drift upwards as they age, at least until the 60s when some revert to losing weight, and not only muscle mass but fat as well.

The interesting question, of course, is whether one can "reset" one's set point to what it was in the 20s.

leptin is influenced by caloric surplus/deficit and macronutrient ratios (primarily carbohydrates)

Any comments (or links) on how low-carb diets in general and ketosis in particular affect leptin?

Comment author: TylerJay 20 February 2014 08:20:04PM 3 points [-]

Right, I mean by specific interventions. For example, dieting down to very low body fat and then maintaining it does not appear to increase leptin sensitivity (much) beyond that of a normal-weight person, nor does exercise.

As far as ketosis and leptin goes, This study indicates that carbohydrate overfeeding increases leptin and energy expenditure, while fat overfeeding does not. This suggests that eating carbohydrates naturally causes you to get full, while fat does not, which is inline with research on satiety and macronutrients. (Keep in mind that fructose is not metabolized like a normal carbohydrate and has different effects on leptin and so may not cause the leptin increase or induce satiety.)

This study indicates that ketosis blunts ghrelin release even in a caloric deficit which could be the reason that people on ketogenic diets (or doing intermittent fasts, which is a fat-burning state) report lower hunger levels. In this situation, leptin is lower which probably reduces metabolic rate a bit (probably not hugely significant), but its effect on hunger is probably balanced out by the change in ghrelin.

If you are doing a ketogenic or low carb diet, if you reach a plateau with weight loss, it could be because your leptin is too low. Doing a carb refeed with glucose (which includes starches), but not fructose, could be beneficial.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 February 2014 08:56:00PM 1 point [-]

Interesting. So this implies that lower hunger in calorie-deficit ketosis is due to low ghrelin which more than compensates for lower leptin... And yes, carb refeeds (usually weekly) are a component of many low-carb diets.

Comment author: Nornagest 19 February 2014 07:30:19PM 21 points [-]

For what it's worth, weight loss and related topics are one of the things that I might describe as unconventionally political: not aligned with any of the standard Blue-Green axes, but nonetheless identity-entangled enough that getting useful information out of them is unusually difficult. (Also in this category: relationship advice, file sharing, hardcore vs. casual within gaming, romantic status of fictional characters, ponies.)

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 19 February 2014 11:07:06PM 1 point [-]

I have an acquaintance whose every third Facebook update is about types of food you should or shouldn't eat for whatever reason. She's not into fitness or dietary ethics (vegetarianism, sustainability, etc.), and the only possible reasons I can think of for her to opine over diet so much are (a) it gives her secret superpowers she's not allowed to talk about, or (b) she has a really strong orthogonally-political affiliation based around food.

Comment author: shminux 19 February 2014 07:33:48PM *  18 points [-]

"How could I rationally believe LW knows what they are talking about in regard to the Singularity, UFAI, etc. if they seem to spin their wheels so badly on a discussion about something as simple as weight loss?"

Dieting is one of many topics discussed on this forum where the level of discourse is hardly above dilettante. Applied rationality and AGI friendliness research is done by several people full-time, which brings the discussion quality up in these areas, mostly. So it would not be fair to judge those by the averages. Everything else is probably subreddit-level, only more polite and on-topic.

Comment author: jimmy 19 February 2014 07:01:40PM 7 points [-]

[...]something as simple as weight loss?"

Weight loss isn't as simple as you think.

Sure it's all about burning more than you eat, but for a lot of people "just eat less and exercise more!" isn't advice they can follow. You seem to have "lucked out" on that front.

The far more interesting and useful question is "what factors determine how easy it is to eat less and exercise more?". This is where it gets nontrivial. You can't even narrow it down to one field of study. I've known people to have success from just changing their diet (not all in the same way) as well as others who have had success from psychological shifts - and one from surgery.

I don't consider LW to be the experts on how to lose weight either, but that doesn't signal incompetence to me. Finding the flaws in the current set of visible "solutions" is much easier than finding your own better solution or even grasping the underlying mechanisms that explain the value and limitations of different approaches. So if you have a group of people who are good at spotting sloppy thinking who spend a few minutes of their day analyzing things for fun, of course you're going to see a very critical literature review rather than a unanimously supported "winner". Even if there were such a thing in the territory waiting to be found (I suspect there isn't), then you wouldn't expect anyone on LW to find it unless they were motivated to really study it.

Comment author: Brillyant 19 February 2014 07:43:11PM 1 point [-]

Sure it's all about burning more than you eat, but for a lot of people "just eat less and exercise more!" isn't advice they can follow. You seem to have "lucked out" on that front.

Yes, and no.

There are significant differences between some individuals' BMR. And some people are just better at managing will power. And some likely people experience much greater physiological responses to food than others.

In those ways, you're exactly right. I'm apparently wired to be able to white knuckle my way to a successful ~6 week diet where some others cannot.

But that wasn't really the thrust of the argument in the discussion I linked. Rather, it was all sorts of back and forth about the viability of popular dieting methods.

I agree dieting isn't easy to do for all sorts of reasons. But it is simple. And that seemed to be completely lost on a group of people that are way smarter than me.

It made me think twice about LW's views on all sorts of things that aren't easy or simple.

Comment author: Pfft 20 February 2014 02:39:03AM *  8 points [-]

I agree dieting isn't easy to do for all sorts of reasons. But it is simple. And that seemed to be completely lost on a group of people that are way smarter than me.

An alternative explanation might be that the "weightloss = energy output - energy intake" model is so simple that all the people involved in the discussion already understand it, consider it obvious and trivial, and have moved on to discussing harder questions.

Comment author: Brillyant 20 February 2014 02:41:57AM 1 point [-]

Perhaps. Though from my recall that was not the case.

Comment author: arundelo 20 February 2014 02:54:01AM 5 points [-]

I can starve or think, not both at the same time.

-- Eliezer Yudkowsky

So yes, dieting is simple!

Comment author: RomeoStevens 19 February 2014 09:59:01PM 3 points [-]

Back and forth should be expected in a realm where the studies are terrible and different methodologies seem to yield vastly different results for people based on unknown parameter differences between them.

Comment author: brazil84 19 February 2014 09:19:45PM 4 points [-]

There seemed to be all sorts of discussion about everything other than the simple math behind weight loss.

Well it seems there's a lot more to weight loss than simple math. I should add that from an outside perspective, there is a pretty good chance you will re-gain the weight you lost.

Anyway, I agree with you that the discourse about obesity/weight loss/etc. is not much better here than in other places. I think part of the problem is that low-carb dieting is almost like a religious issue for some people. I suspect another part of the problem is that self-deception seems to play a role in obesity/overweight. Last, there are a large number of poor thinkers who post here (as in most places); arguably a subject like weight loss which is very easy to have an opinion on is a magnet for them.

Have you ever lost confidence in LW after a similar experience?

Somewhat, yes. I wrote a blog post called "Is Lesswrong More Wrong" a while back.

Comment author: ChristianKl 19 February 2014 06:38:49PM 1 point [-]

The fact that you managed to lose weight in a way where you wish it weren't the case, doesn't mean much for the people who are intentionally trying to lower their weight.

I would also add that information about direct weight numbers doesn't tell the whole story. What was your BMI before and after?

Comment author: Brillyant 19 February 2014 07:25:38PM 2 points [-]

I don't have any body composition data, though it would be interesting to know. I was a serious powerlifter before my injury, and I'd imagine I've lost a not insignificant amount of muscle mass over the past 4 or 5 months.

And I should have been clearer about my story: I was injured at the beginning of October when I weighed in the ~195-198 lb range. I didn't eat much for a couple weeks due to the pain and inconvenience, then I ate like shit until Jan 1 when I weighed (a much fluffier, by my estimation) ~185-187 lbs. As of mid-February (now) I weigh ~168-169 lbs.

I very intentionally started focusing on losing "junk" weight as of Jan 1, so it might just be easier to say I lost ~15-18 lbs in ~6 weeks doing nothing more than (a) limiting calories & (b) adding consistent exercise.

Comment author: Alejandro1 19 February 2014 04:27:24PM *  12 points [-]

Some Bayesian thoughts on the classic mystery genre, prompted by watching on Netflix episodes of the Poirot series with David Suchet (which is really excellent by the way).

A common pattern in classic mystery stories is that there is a an obvious suspect, who had clear motive, means and opportunity for the crime (perhaps there is also some physical evidence against him/her). However, there is one piece of evidence that is unexplainable if the obvious person did it: a little clue unaccounted for, or perhaps a seemingly inconsequential lie or inconsistency in a witness' testimony. The Great Detective insists that no detail should be ignored, that the true explanation should account for all the clues. He eventually finds the true solution, which perfectly explains all the evidence, and usually involves a complicated plot by someone else committing the crime in such a way to get an airtight alibi, or to frame the first suspect, or both.

In Bayesian terms, the obvious solution has high prior probability P(H), and high P(E|H) for all components of E except for one or two apparently minor ones. The true solution, by contrast, has very high probability P(E|H) for all components of E. It is also claimed by the detective to have high prior P(H) (the guilty party tends to be someone with an excellent motive, they just had been dismissed as a suspect because of a seemingly perfect alibi). However, there is here a required suspension of disbelief, in that in real life there is a very low prior probability of someone plotting a crime (and successfully carrying it out) with a convoluted, complicated plot in order to get an alibi. In real life, the detective's solution would be dismissed because of a low P(H), and the detective's insistence on finding a solution that maximizes P(E|H) at the cost of P(H) would be flawed from the point of view of Bayesian rationality.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 22 February 2014 08:58:28PM 5 points [-]

The question then becomes how this trope should properly be averted in rationalist fiction. (Besides the HPMOR approach.)

Comment author: tgb 22 February 2014 01:53:50PM 1 point [-]

They almost always end with the actual murderer being accused and then immediately getting angry and confessing thereby giving them the only actual hard evidence that could ever be used in a conviction. It's convenient that way. (See, for an extreme example, one of the episodes of the recent season 3 of Sherlock.)

Comment author: chaosmage 20 February 2014 11:43:12AM 1 point [-]

Of course these stories also make crime look more difficult than it is, so they serve a useful purpose that probably outweighs the misrepresentation of real detective work.

Comment author: Alejandro1 20 February 2014 06:05:04PM 1 point [-]

I'm not sure. The criminal is always caught, but only because of a genius Great Detective; the regular police are usually portrayed as incompetent, at least in the true classics of the genre (Conan Doyle, early Christie). Modern shows like CSI might be a case where your statement applies better.

Comment author: ChristianKl 19 February 2014 06:56:59PM 2 points [-]

He eventually finds the true solution, which perfectly explains all the evidence, and usually involves a complicated plot by someone else committing the crime in such a way to get an airtight alibi, or to frame the first suspect, or both.

Reality doesn't work that way. In reality most solutions don't explain every clues that you find. A lot of clues are just random noise.

Comment author: Alejandro1 19 February 2014 07:03:24PM 2 points [-]

Yes, that was part of my point too. Maximizing P(E|H) at the expense of P(H) is much less likely (in real life) to give you a true solution than maximizing P(H|E) with Bayes, even if some components of P(E|H) are not particularly high (which is normal in real life).

Comment author: JQuinton 19 February 2014 08:22:59PM 4 points [-]

I recently commented on one of my friends' Facebook posts in regards to the Bill Nye/Ken Ham debate. One of the issues I brought up was that Ham's Creationism lacked the qualities that we would usually associate with good explanations, namely what I called "precision". Which I defined as:

Good explanations exclude more possible evidence than bad explanations. Let’s say that you have two friends who collect marbles. One friend collects only black marbles while the other collects every single color marble he can get his hands on. If your plumbing problems started after both friends were over for a few hours, and a black marble was found in your pipes, it’s much more likely that your friend who only collects black marbles caused it than your friend who collects all marble colors; even though it’s known that both friends own black marbles.

I'm pretty sure I made up this definition of "precision" because upon Google-ing I can't find any definition of "precision" that matches this. More importantly, I can't really find any sort of list that enumerates the items that separate good explanations from bad explanations. The person I posted this in response to rightly pointed this out, so "good explanation" seems entirely subjective from his point of view. Any ideas on how to close the inferential gap between us using a more authoritative source than just my say so?

Comment author: ciphergoth 20 February 2014 01:04:30PM 3 points [-]
Comment author: gwern 19 February 2014 09:17:59PM 4 points [-]

I'm pretty sure I made up this definition of "precision" because upon Google-ing I can't find any definition of "precision" that matches this.

Reminds me of 'discrimination'. See Yudkowsky. (I'd link to WP, but seems there's no article there on the term.)

Comment author: badger 20 February 2014 02:18:11AM 1 point [-]

My guess is the person most likely to defend this criterion is a Popperian of some flavor, since precise explanations (as you define them) can be cleanly falsified.

While it's nice when something is cleanly falsified, it's not clear we should actively strive for precision in our explanations. An explanation that says all observations are equally likely is hard to disprove and hence hard to gather evidence for by conversation of evidence, but that doesn't mean we should give it an extra penalty.

If all explanations have equal prior probability, then Bayesian reasoning will tend to favor the most precise explanations consistent with the evidence. Seeing a black marble is most likely when all the marbles in a collection are black. If you then found a red marble, that would definitely rule out the black collection (assuming they both had to come from the same one). The best candidate would then be one that is half each. Ultimately, this all comes back down to likelihoods though, so I'm not sure the idea of precision adds much.

Comment author: JQuinton 20 February 2014 05:24:47PM 1 point [-]

I agree it's very Popperian, but I purposefully shied away from mentioning anything "science" related since that seemed to be a source of conflict; this person specifically thinks that science is just something that people with lab coats do and is part of a large materialist conspiracy to reject morality. But leaving any "science-y" words out of it and relying on axioms of probability theory, he rejoined with something along the lines of "real life isn't a probability game". I kinda just threw up my hands at that point, telling myself that the inferential distance is too large to cross.

Comment author: rxs 19 February 2014 07:33:56PM 4 points [-]

Reposting for visibility from the previous open thread as I posted on the last day of it (will not be reposting this anymore):

Speed reading doesn't register many hits here, but in a recent thread on subvocalization there are claims of speeds well above 500 WPM.

My standard reading speed is about 200 WPM (based on my eReader statistics, varies by content), I can push myself to maybe 240 but it is not enjoyable (I wouldn't read fiction at this speed) and 450-500 WPM with RSVP.

My aim this year is to get myself at 500+ WPM base (i.e. usable also for leisure reading and without RSVP). Is this even possible? Claims seem to be contradictory.

Does anybody have recommendations on systems that actually work? Most I've seen seem like overblown claims to pump for money from desperate managers... I'm willing to put into it money if it actually can deliver. I know the basic advices but looking for a time effective guided process.

Thank you very much.

Comment author: Ben_LandauTaylor 20 February 2014 05:15:57PM 4 points [-]

In my experience, subvocalization doesn't become a barrier until you hit maybe 900-1000 wpm. I still subvocalize, and I read at about 800 wpm with appropriate software and 500 wpm on dead trees, so it's definitely achievable. Over the span of several weeks, I increased my speed from ~250 wpm by spending 30 minutes a day practicing the techniques from Matt Fallshaw's presentation at the Effective Altruism Summit. Unfortunately, my notes are about 3000 miles away, right now.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 19 February 2014 09:19:43PM 1 point [-]

I just read a lot. No system.

Also, I don't normally read at 600 wpm - that was approaching the limit where I don't need to stop and think about what I'm reading, only stopping to consciously note and identify each individual word. On, say, a LW comment, where I actually need to think at least a little? Hmm. Heh. It came out as 550 wpm, not a big drop. Trying a harder one? 490.

Comment author: NoSuchPlace 19 February 2014 04:11:43PM 7 points [-]

The latest SMBC is on the singularity, fun theory and simulations.

Comment author: polymathwannabe 19 February 2014 06:06:14PM 4 points [-]

Liked it a lot.

I've noticed that "already" seems to be a very important word in LW-related arguments and posts, i.e. if X were a good idea, people would already be doing it; if Y is a plausible end for the universe, it's probably happened already.

Comment author: Vulture 20 February 2014 10:40:48PM 5 points [-]

I'm sure you already (heh) know this, but I figured I would say this lest passer-by conclude that these two arguments are analogous instances of the same argument. They are not.

"if X were a good idea, people would already be doing it" has a structure entirely different from that of "if Y is a plausible end for the universe, it's probably happened already." The former is reasoning about the optimization power of already-existing agents, while the latter uses intuitive anthropic reasoning based on the questionable premise that the universe tends to re-form after it is destroyed.

Comment author: iarwain1 19 February 2014 09:12:36PM 2 points [-]

For those interested, MITx is starting their intro to programming course today. It's the first part of a 7-course XSeries certificate program.

Comment author: TylerJay 20 February 2014 05:53:55AM 4 points [-]

I took this class as my first programming course the first time edX offered it. That course has now been split into the first two courses in the X-series mentioned here. It was extremely high quality, had challenging programming assignments with good guidance, and a very helpful auto-grader. I highly recommend it.

Comment author: Ishaan 19 February 2014 05:15:38PM *  4 points [-]

This app has been demonstrated to successfully improve visual acuity in baseball players and performance in game. (Works on the brain, not the eyes.)

Popular press

Purchasable:

Original paper:

^ Link formatting is weird, so just copy-paste (Edit: fixed thanks to PECOS-9)

Comment author: PECOS-9 19 February 2014 06:54:04PM *  5 points [-]
Comment author: James_Miller 19 February 2014 08:19:39PM 3 points [-]

On the iTunes store 172 people gave it the lowest ranking, many saying it won't get past the name screen.

Comment author: arundelo 20 February 2014 03:00:45AM 1 point [-]

I just bought the Windows version. It's currently unusable because the mouse pointer disappears whenever the program's window is in front. I have sent an email to the support address.

Comment author: chaosmage 19 February 2014 03:01:25PM 4 points [-]

SciShow did a 4 minute YouTube clip on Bayes' Theorem. It could hold the attention of most eight-year-olds and is factually adequate considering the constraints of the medium.

Comment author: ciphergoth 19 February 2014 03:40:23PM 2 points [-]

I need new T-shirts. I can never find ones I like, so I'm resorting to making my own slogan T-shirts on the usual design sites. So far I've ordered "NO POEMS FOR YOU, GNOMEKILLER!". What shall I get next?

Comment author: palladias 19 February 2014 03:45:33PM 7 points [-]

My friends and I made a trolley problem shirt. (Also Plato's Cave and Prisoners Dilemma jokes)

Comment author: btrettel 19 February 2014 04:46:12AM 8 points [-]

Given the importance of communication style in interpersonal relationships, I am looking to create an OkCupid question to determine if someone is an asker/teller or guesser. I'm having difficulty creating an unbiased question. Any way I've written the question makes ask/tell seem obviously better, e.g., here are two possibilities:

  1. When you want someone to do something for you, do you prefer to ask them directly or do you prefer to mention something related and expect that they infer what you want?

  2. Should your partner "just know" what you want without you ever saying so explicitly?

That perception might just be my own bias. Quite a few people I know would probably answer #2 as yes.

Unfortunately, this question probably won't be answered very often, so it's also useful to look for a proxy. Vaniver suggested a question about gifts when I mentioned this at a meetup, and I believe he meant the question "How often should your significant other buy you gifts, jewelry, or other things more expensive than, say, dinner, cards, or flowers?" This question is a reasonable proxy because many guessers I know seem to expect people to "just know" what sort of gifts are appropriate for them. Unfortunately, many guessers might not care that someone buys things for them with any regularity.

Another possibility is "Imagine that a friend asks you to read a short story they wrote. Unfortunately, you find it to be very boring. Which is closest to how you might respond when they ask you what you think of it?" I think that indirectly gets to the core of the ask vs. guess issue. Saying negative things is considered inappropriate to most guessers. Any other potential proxy questions?

Comment author: Ishaan 19 February 2014 05:38:39PM *  12 points [-]

When you want someone to do something for you, do you prefer to ask them directly or do you prefer to mention something related and expect that they infer what you want?

You're gonna lose at least 20% of the OKC population and a much larger chunk of the general population with the complexity of your sentence structure and the use of words like "infer".

When you want something do you

And there's another problem - the real answer will usually be "it depends on the situation". So an even better question would be

How often do you drop hints about what you want, instead of asking directly?

(Even now, my real answer is "it depends on what system I think the person I am talking to uses". I'm not sure ask/tell is actually a property attributable to individual people...it's more a mode of group interaction)

Submitting...

Comment author: Error 20 February 2014 04:01:25PM 7 points [-]

You're gonna lose at least 20% of the OKC population and a much larger chunk of the general population with the complexity of your sentence structure and the use of words like "infer".

This sounds like a feature, not a bug.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 20 February 2014 04:20:23PM 3 points [-]

Not if you want the question to actually be accepted for use on the site.

Comment author: Error 20 February 2014 05:14:09PM 3 points [-]

Ah. For some reason I thought it was a freeform question to be put to those potentially interested. (I don't actually know anything about OKC)

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 19 February 2014 08:53:34PM 4 points [-]

I'd hedge in the 'all the time' and 'never' to include 'nearly' variants of each.

Comment author: [deleted] 21 February 2014 04:39:33PM 1 point [-]

And I'd split the “Sometimes” into “Often” and “Rarely”, otherwise a supermajority of people would just pick the middle answer (and also, ISTM that “how often” questions on OKC usually have four possible answers).

Comment author: btrettel 20 February 2014 02:19:21AM 1 point [-]

Great comment. I think your latter question is excellent, though I'm not sure that "drop hints" is the best way to describe guessing. I'll think about what might be better.

Comment author: Ishaan 20 February 2014 08:38:41PM *  2 points [-]

You could further simplify it to "How often do you directly ask for what you want?" -Almost Never, I hate asking for things, - Sometimes bla bla bla, - Almost always, clear communication bla bla bla

Also, some people take things really literally, so I'd take LukeASomers' advice and add the "almost" hedges

Comment author: Torello 20 February 2014 12:40:48AM 2 points [-]

I think you are making assumptions that might be hard justify:

-people have the self-knowledge to answer this question effectively -people are not gaming the answer to seem appealing -people can accurately identify their preferences about what type of communication style works for them

Don't mean to sound like a downer--I'm glad some people take this seriously. I think trying to produce questions like these is a good idea, I'm trying to point out some potential flaws to help.

Comment author: btrettel 20 February 2014 02:18:35AM *  1 point [-]

I appreciate the help. These assumptions can be problematic, but they are problems for all online dating, not my specific question. In my experience, OkCupid question responses are not always accurate, but they are more than accurate enough to be useful.

Comment author: moridinamael 19 February 2014 02:05:49PM 12 points [-]

Possibly insurmountable problem is that loads of people want to think that they are Tell or at least Ask but in practice they are actually Guess and you have no way of filtering for this. In my experience people are extremely bad at knowing "how they are" relative to other people.

Comment author: Pfft 19 February 2014 06:46:55PM *  7 points [-]

Perhaps the questions should give concrete scenarios. Something like

Ann needed to visit Chicago to go to a conference, and asked her friend Beth "Can I stay in your apartment Mon through Wed". Beth answered, "no, it's too much trouble to have a houseguest". Was Beth unreasonable?

and

Your friend Ann send you an email saying, "I need to go to Chicago for a conference, can I stay with you in your apartment Mon through Wed?" Is this an inconsiderate request?

Comment author: moridinamael 20 February 2014 01:56:12PM 2 points [-]

I suspect this works best if you avoid priming the test subjects on what they're going to be tested on, otherwise I think they will expend effort to seem extra-reasonable contra their natural impulse.

But, yes, good idea, I was way too quick to call it an insurmountable problem.

Comment author: ChristianKl 19 February 2014 03:37:41PM 1 point [-]

I think what happens to be guessing depends a lot on the understanding that you have between two people.

I don't really think in terms of acting in a way that get's another person to take a specific action. I focus more on giving the person all relevant information and expect the other person to take the action that maximizes utility.

If I ask Alice to dance Salsa and she needs a break I don't want Alice to come dancing with me. I want Alice to act according to her feelings and take the break. I can ask Carol who might actually want to dance at that moment and ask Alice later. I can also spent some time meditating if there no woman who wants to dance at a particular moment around. I'm not attached to a particular action of another person.

On the other hand if the person doesn't engage in an action that maximizes utility to make a point of signaling status or to punish that can annoy me.

Depending on how well I know the position of the other person and how well I know what's right for myself I might just say what I feel or I might be very explicit about a possible solution.

Shyness can also hold me back from sharing certain information. It can be hard to articulate deep feelings in an environment where that's not normal behavior. I'm still quite bad at talking about feelings in a Salsa environment where I might ask a woman to dance very directly but rely a lot on nonverbal signs to regulate the level of intimacy of a dance. Openly saying something to an attractive woman like: "It feels a bit strange when you dance closely with me because you are tense and don't relax the way I would expect you to if you enjoy dancing close." is very hard.

If you hear me talk with my meditation teacher you probably would not understand what's said because the conversation heavily relies on implicit assumptions. On the other hand I have a hard time calling it guess culture because we both understand each other perfectly well.

The whole idea of guessing assumes that there's doubt whether the other person understands the point you want to make.

I think part of having a good intimate relationship with another person is that you have a good idea of what the other person wants without them saying so explicitly. On the other hand having a good intimate relationship also means that you can explicitly communicate your desires in cases where the other person doesn't pick them up on their own.

I think both of the question you mention tell you something about the other person. The goal of a good question isn't to be without bias but to provide a clear signal. Someone who says that they prefer to mention something related and expect the other person to infer what they want is a clear guess culture person in every sense of the word.

Comment author: JQuinton 20 February 2014 06:05:37PM 1 point [-]

If you hear me talk with my meditation teacher you probably would not understand what's said because the conversation heavily relies on implicit assumptions. On the other hand I have a hard time calling it guess culture because we both understand each other perfectly well.

This is more accurately described as the difference between high context and low context cultures. This might actually be some sort of precursor to ask vs. guess culture.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 19 February 2014 05:40:41AM 5 points [-]

I would use "Do you prefer to explain everything you want to your partner explicitly, or do you prefer that they infer some of your desires from your implicit suggestions?" as well as "Is it OK to turn down an explicit request by your partner if you're capable of fulfilling it but you don't want to?"

I might also use the reversed versions: "Do you prefer to have everything explained to you explicitly, or do you prefer some things be left for you to infer from context?" and "Is it OK for your partner to turn down your explicit request if they're capable of fulfilling it but don't want to?"

Comment author: Fossegrimen 19 February 2014 06:33:34AM *  3 points [-]

I think you might need both variants because if I were to answer such questions, the response would not necessarily be symmetrical;

  • Is it OK to turn down an explicit request by your partner if you're capable of fulfilling it but you don't want to? - Not at all
  • Is it OK for your partner to turn down your explicit request if they're capable of fulfilling it but don't want to? - Of course

(assuming reasonable requests)

Comment author: [deleted] 21 February 2014 04:31:29PM 2 points [-]

Postel Culture FTW! ;-)

Comment author: TheOtherDave 19 February 2014 02:59:10PM 1 point [-]

(nods) That's why I mentioned them; I think that kind of assymetry is common for a lot of people, especially those who were raised in a high-context (aka "Guess") culture but then migrated to a low-context (aka "Ask") culture.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 19 February 2014 05:10:17AM 7 points [-]

Mildly interesting challenge:

There is a new internet community game taking off called Twitch Plays Pokemon. The concept is simple: set up a server that takes the next properly formatted input ("up", "down", "a button") from a chat window, and apply it - in order, with no filtering - to a copy of Pokemon Red.

This is going about as well as can be expected, with 90,000 players, about a third of whom are actively attempting to impede progress.

So, a TDT style challenge: Beat the game in the shortest number of steps

  • If there are no trolls, but you cannot communicate with other players
  • If some percentage p of players are trolling and the timeless plan must be adjusted to be robust.
Comment author: Khoth 19 February 2014 04:12:30PM *  12 points [-]

What do you mean by "communicate"? If I send a command, and you observe the result of that command on the game, we've communicated.

If that's allowed, the non-troll case is easy: Wait a random amount of time, then send a command. If yours was the first command to be sent, play the game. If someone else sends a command before you do, do nothing ever again.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 20 February 2014 06:06:30AM 1 point [-]

Hm.

Yeah, I don't think I can remove that communication channel without breaking the game entirely. So that makes the first exercise rather trivial.

Comment author: Coscott 19 February 2014 09:48:11PM *  4 points [-]

I have been checking in on this for the last few days. I do not think they will be able to make it through victory road. This would require them to get through a passage, where they have to go down once, then left 11 times, then up once without pressing down at any point along the way. If they make it through, they will have to solve a large number of boulder puzzles in a cave with lvl 40 wild pokemon, and if they die at any time, they have to go across the passage again.

I did an estimate of how long I think it would take them to accomplish just walking across the passage once, based on how they did on similar passages in the past, and it came out to 50 years.

This estimate was before they changed the system to some weird democracy system, which will likely help them.

Comment author: gwern 20 February 2014 08:21:21PM 1 point [-]

I did an estimate of how long I think it would take them to accomplish just walking across the passage once, based on how they did on similar passages in the past, and it came out to 50 years.

Hm, that feels a bit long. How did you estimate that?

Comment author: 9eB1 20 February 2014 08:53:22PM *  2 points [-]

According to this it took 12 hours to execute a move that requires 8 rightward movements. If the "victory road" requires that they execute 13 moves correctly, and the time it takes grows exponentially with the number of steps (as a power of two), then it might be a reasonable ballpark to suggest it would take 12*2^(13-8) hours, which would be 16 days. Of course, this is an overestimate because assuming more than 50% of people are making the right move, it should grow as a power less than 2. Much less than 50 years I would expect, but then again I've never played Pokemon so could be missing some element here that changes the complexity.

Comment author: Coscott 20 February 2014 08:46:53PM *  1 point [-]

On second thought, I think it was a bad estimate. It is very dependent on how many of the people are trying to make them fail, and I really have no idea what that is. It is also very dependent on the lag.

Here is the route in question.

The problem is that there is lag, and a single down vote after they are on the passage makes them have to start over. Trolls and honest people who do not understand the strategy will be pressing down for a large part of the travel, so the likelihood of making it across will not be high. I think it would be generous to say that every time they mess up, it will take them 1 minute to get back to try again. 10 minutes seems more accurate to me.

Most attempts will fail at the beginning, because they need the correct number of people to press down, and no more to get lined up with the ledge. Then the question becomes, can they get 11 lefts and an up before they get a down.

You can see why 40% trolls and 20% trolls will change this estimate a lot.

I do not think this matters that much though, because they changed the system, and the democracy system will make it a lot easier for this part.

Comment author: gwern 20 February 2014 10:05:04PM 1 point [-]

Ah. The approach I was thinking of was to model it as a binomial or Poisson, infer the probability of success at each step by noting that it took 12 hours (or let's say, 720 tries) to have 8 successes in a row, and then calculate how many tries would be required to get 13 successes in a row. Unfortunately I wasn't sure how to go from '720 tries for 8 successes in a row' to 'probability of 1 success' and gave up there.

Comment author: Coscott 20 February 2014 11:10:25PM 1 point [-]

the probability of one success is 720^(1/8), so it should take 720^(13/8) tries, which is about a month. However, the fact that they could line themselves up for the last one just by pressing up and down, and not risking having to start over will make a huge difference.

Comment author: eggman 19 February 2014 03:54:26AM *  8 points [-]

My following queries are addressed to those who have experience using nicotine as a nootropic and/or have learned much about what taking nicotine as a nootropic is like. If you yourself don't match either of these descriptions, but have gained information from those who do, also please feel free to answer my queries. However, references, or citations, backing up the information you provide would be appreciated. If you're aware of another thread, or post, where my concerns, or questions, have previously been addressed, please let me know.

Gwern, appreciated on Less Wrong for the caliber of his analysis, makes the case for experimenting with using nicotine as a nootropic on an occasional basis. For the use of nicotine as a nootropic within the community which is Less Wrong, the most recent date for which I could find data on usage rates was the 2012 Less Wrong survey results:

NICOTINE (OTHER THAN SMOKING): Never used: 916, 77.4% Rarely use: 82, 6.9% 1x/month: 32, 2.7% Every day: 14, 1.2% No answer: 139, 11.7%

I haven't used nootropics other than caffeine in the past, but when I was first reading about the promise they might hold for improving my cognition in various ways I was impressed. What was true in general of my impression of nootropics was also true for my impression of nicotine in particular. Upon reading Gwern's analysis, I was excited. However, based upon the survey results, I was surprised that there weren't more Less Wrong users using nicotine more frequently. This could be because P(Less Wrong user taking any uncommon nootropic), or P(Less Wrong user being aware of the uses of uncommon nootropics) might be lower than I would have expected, so P(Less Wrong user taking nicotine as a nootropic) would consequently be lower than I would expect as well.

I asked one of my friends from the rationality meetup I attend if he would use nicotine as a nootropic, and he told me he probably wouldn't. When I asked him the reason for this, he told me he feared the affects addiction of nicotine might have upon him.

Gwern's conclusion on trying nicotine as a nootropic is as follows:

So what’s the upshot? My reading has convinced me to at least give it a try and it has been useful (see the nicotine section of Nootropics). The negatives universally seem to be long-term negatives, and even if nicotine turns out to be something I haul out only in a crisis or every few weeks, it would still have been worth investigating.

It seems the stigma, perhaps quite justified, around any use of nicotine could be preventing more people from trying nicotine as a nootropic. The fact that the community of Less Wrong seemed less excited about trying nicotine as a nootropic than I used to be is a fact I took as a signal that I was missing something in the risk inherent in trying to take nicotine. That was almost a year ago. Since then, I haven't tried nicotine as a nootropic, or any others, except continued use of caffeine, for that matter.

I want to take another look at nicotine again. With the advent of electronic cigarettes, and their increasing ubiquity, it seems the risk of switching from nicotine patches, or gum, to tobacco products, is lessened. If one were to develop a dependency on nicotine, and then becomes addicted to the use of tobacco products for whatever reason, one could transition back to consuming only nicotine by using electronic cigarettes. So, for the user in question, the health risks associated with the habit could revert back to only those risks posed by the use of nicotine, unmixed with the other harmful ingredients of tobacco products.

Nevertheless, the use of only nicotine itself can pose health risks, which are outlined in the linked review written by Gwern.

So:

  • if you have considered using nicotine as nootropic, but ultimately didn't pursue its use, what was the reason(s) why you didn't?

  • if you have used nicotine as a nootropic, if you believe you did experience them, what were the dependency affects like? What impact did they have on your life?

  • if you have previously used nicotine as a nootropic, but have ceased doing so, what were your reasons for doing so?

  • if both you and someone else you know have used nicotine as a nootropic, and the quality of your respective experiences differed substantially, how? Why do you believe this was/is the case?

  • for those in the know, are there any questions on this topic I'm not asking, but I should be asking?

Note: edited for formatting.

Comment author: TylerJay 20 February 2014 05:28:36PM 4 points [-]

I use an e-cigarette sometimes while working. I do not smoke. I feel like it does give a small lift at first, though re-dosing effects seem less pronounced than the first of the day. If I puff on it for too long, I feel like it actually gives a slight depressant effect. Overall, its pleasant and tastes good. I think most of the benefit comes from the fact that you're just a little bit "high" while working which makes it more enjoyable. They are definitely addicting.

Comment author: eggman 20 February 2014 08:34:12PM 1 point [-]

Thanks for replying, TylerJay. Did you notice they became addictive immediately, or after a graduated period of use? If the latter, what was the frequency, or quantity, of your daily consumption of e-cigarettes? Is there anyway you believe one might be able to avoid addiction to e-cigarettes?

Comment author: [deleted] 09 October 2014 01:14:58AM 2 points [-]

I would recommend gum or lozenge instead of ecigarrete... the immediate effect of the ecigarette would seem to make addiction much more likely.

Comment author: TylerJay 20 February 2014 08:56:13PM *  3 points [-]

Did you notice they became addictive immediately, or after a graduated period of use?

Over time. It's really subtle. You first notice it if you go away for a few days and don't bring it and you're like "Damn, I wish I brought my ecig." I've had it for a year and I routinely go a week without using it and I don't have any withdrawals. I just catch myself thinking about it sometimes.

Is there anyway you believe one might be able to avoid addiction to e-cigarettes?

Yeah, don't smoke em.

But in all seriousness (and since abstinence is boring and usually ineffective), your best bet is to get the low nicotine versions and only use it a little bit. If you feel like you took a puff or two and didn't get additionally stimulated, then stop smoking it and wait until the next day or wait a few hours. Take 1-2 week long breaks every once in a while as a status check and take note of the quiet little voice in your head. How many times does it bring up the ecig? If you find yourself needing more to feel the same buzz (or you just start going through them a lot faster), that's a sign to stop and take a nice long break. This is pretty generic good advice for any addictive substances and I've used it effectively with many.

Comment author: AlexSchell 19 February 2014 03:38:03PM 2 points [-]

If you look at the relevant meta-analyses, the effect size estimates are quite modest, so much that most of nicotine's cognitive benefits won't be detectable by introspection. Given the lack of readily observable benefits and given the foul taste of the gum/lozenges, it can be challenging to maintain the habit. All this is in accord with my experience. I would expect that e-cigarettes are superior in this respect.

Comment author: eggman 24 February 2014 05:55:38AM 1 point [-]

I'm closer to personally experimenting with nicotine, so I'd like to gloss over these meta-analyses. I can access academic, and medical, journals myself, but I don't know which ones to search in. In which journal can I find this citation? (please and thanks).

Comment author: AlexSchell 25 February 2014 05:32:13AM 0 points [-]

I've only read the one gwern mentions: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20414766

Comment author: eggman 25 February 2014 09:12:33AM 0 points [-]

Thanks.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 19 February 2014 03:21:39PM 2 points [-]

About a year ago, after reading the same Gwern piece, I bought a pack of 20 Nicorette 4mg nicotine mints. It was my intention to use them to try and hack my internal reward system to find a certain activity (solo jazz dance classes) intrinsically enjoyable. I've now achieved this, but I can't attest to the role of nicotine in the process, and in all likelihood I probably just learned to like solo jazz classes. I've occasionally used them as a generic stimulant. Here are some observations and comments that may be of use to you:

  • Of the original pack of 20, I still have about half a dozen left after nearly a year. A regular packet of Mentos wouldn't last a week.

  • They taste kind of foul. Not horrible, but if I weren't sucking one with an objective in mind, I'd probably spit it out.

  • I, personally, have a very poor ability to scrutinise my internal states. If I'm drunk, I don't feel drunk, but instead have to infer my state through my behaviour. 4mg of nicotine for a non-smoker is apparently quite a heavy dose, but I don't feel a "buzz" or any other subjective "come-on" experience.

  • I'm reasonably sure nicotine gives me a short-term boost to focus/attention (observed in dance classes and study sessions), but I can't rule out a placebo effect.

Comment author: Username 19 February 2014 05:15:42PM 1 point [-]

They taste kind of foul. Not horrible, but if I weren't sucking one with an objective in mind, I'd probably spit it out.

Probably so you don't develop an attachment to the nicotine gum. Looks like it works!

Comment author: badger 19 February 2014 02:58:06PM 2 points [-]

I've used 1-2mg of nicotine (via gum) a few of times a month for a couple years. I previously used it a few times a week for a few months before getting a methylphenidate prescription for ADD. There hasn't been any noticeable dependency, but I haven't had that with other drugs either.

Using it, I feel more focused and more confident, in contrast to caffeine which tends to just leaves me jittery and methyphenidate which is better for focus but doesn't have the slight positive emotion boost. Delivered via gum, the half-life is short (an hour at most). That's not great for a day-to-day stimulant, but it's useful when I need something at 6pm and methylphenidate would interfere with my sleep. The primary downside is occasional nausea. Now I'm wondering if patches would be longer-lasting and less nausea-inducing.

Comment author: eggman 20 February 2014 08:32:14PM 1 point [-]

Gwern noted in his analysis of nicotine that to overcome dependency effects, the user could cycle between different nootropics they use. For example, a three day cycle of nicotine, then caffeine, then modafanil, then repeat and start over with nicotine.

Over the course of several months, I could trial different methods of consuming nicotine, i.e., patches, e-cigarettes, and gum. I would space each of these trials out over the course of several months because I wouldn't want each of the trials to be spaced too close together, and I wouldn't want to mess with my body by consuming too much nicotine anyway. As a protection against my subjective experience being useless, I would read more of Gwern's reviews on nootropics, and perhaps consult online nootropics communities on their methods for noting how they feel. Their could be trials I could run, or ways of taking notes, which would allow me to make the information gleaned in that regard more useful.

Comment author: Fossegrimen 19 February 2014 06:50:25AM *  1 point [-]

In my experience, the beneficial effects of nicotine are weak and short-lived. They appeared not to stack with caffeine and I prefer coffee to gum. I didn't experience any dependency effects, but neither have I from other drugs, so that may not be a reliable indicator. My friends look at me strange when I talk about nootropics, so none to compare with

Comment author: jasticE 29 March 2015 11:25:38AM 0 points [-]

I have never smoked, but I use nicotine gum occasionally. It feels like it gives me a slight "edge" when I need to concentrate better, and I definitely feel more of an effect than with typical caffeine doses (which I don't consume regularly either). I tend to chew the gums longer than regular chewing gums, but I feel no particular desire for them when, and actually tend to forget I have them.

Comment author: chaosmage 19 February 2014 03:07:38PM 1 point [-]

Andy Weir's "The Martian" is absolutely fucking brilliant rationalist fiction, and it was published in paper book format a few days ago.

I pre-ordered it because I love his short story The Egg, not knowing I'd get a super-rationalist protagonist in a radical piece of science porn that downright worships space travel. Also, fart jokes. I love it, and if you're an LW type of guy, you probably will too.

Comment author: RomeoStevens 19 February 2014 10:05:35PM 4 points [-]

I couldn't stand The Egg, will I still enjoy The Martian?

Comment author: Coscott 20 February 2014 12:41:23AM 2 points [-]

That is probably very dependent on your reasons for not standing The Egg.

Comment author: Tenoke 19 February 2014 12:44:04PM 1 point [-]

Why is this OT in Main?

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 19 February 2014 12:57:44PM 4 points [-]

Moved to Discussion, added open_thread tag.