Open Thread for February 18-24 2014

4 Post author: eggman 19 February 2014 12:57PM

If it's worth saying, but not worth its own post (even in Discussion), then it goes here.

Comments (454)

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 25 February 2014 02:20:26AM 2 points [-]

Another academic hoax

120 gibberish papers were in journals for up to 5 years. They were found as a result of a test for one kind of gibberish.created by a program called SCIgen.

Comment author: CronoDAS 25 February 2014 01:24:51AM 2 points [-]

Dilbert, on cryonics.

Comment author: shminux 24 February 2014 04:16:25PM 2 points [-]

PhD comics explains Higgs (and quantum physics in general).

Comment author: eggman 24 February 2014 06:18:09AM *  18 points [-]

I just want to thank all of you, as both individuals, and as a community, for being a decent place for discourse. In the last few months, I've been actively engaging with Less Wrong more frequently. Prior to that, I mostly tried asking for opinions on an issue I wanted analyzed on my Facebook. On Facebook, there has been typically been one person writing something like 'ha, this is a strange question! [insert terrible joke'here]. Other than that, radio silence.

On Less Wrong, typical responses are people not thinking I'm weird because I want to analyze stuff outside of the classroom, or question things outside of a meeting dedicated to airing one's skepticism. On Less Wrong, typical responses to my queries are correcting me directly, without beating around the bush, or fearing of offending me. All of you ask me to clarify my thinking when it's confused. When you cannot provide an academic citation, you seem to try to extract what most relevant information you can from the anecdotes from your personal experiences. I find this greatly refreshing.

I created this open thread to ask a specific question, and then I asked some more. Even just from this open thread, the gratification I received from being taken seriously has made me eager to ask more questions, and read other threads in discussion. Reading responses to posters besides myself, and further responses to my comments, have made me feel the samey way. For all I know, there are big problems with Less Wrong to be fixed. However, I'm surprised I found somewhere this non-awful on the Internet at all. So, thanks.

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 25 February 2014 09:32:28PM *  3 points [-]

Many people I know report having much lower-quality experiences on Facebook than mine. The algorithm for improving the quality of the Facebook experience is fairly straightforward: if someone posts content you don't want to see, hide them. If someone makes comments on your statuses you don't want, unfriend them. Repeat. At some point you may need to find new friends, or at least follows.

Comment author: Tedav 23 February 2014 08:36:36PM 2 points [-]

Is anyone else bothered by the word "opposite"?

It has many different usages, but there are two in particular that bother me: "The opposite of hot is cold" "The opposite of red is green" Opposite of A is [something that appears to be on the other side of a spectrum from A]

"The opposite of hot is not-hot" "The opposite of red is not-red"
Opposite of A is ~A

These two usages really ought not to be assigned to the same word. Does anyone know if there are simple ways to unambiguously use one meaning and not the other that already exist in English?

(Basically, are there two words/phrases foo and bar so that one could say "The foo of hot is cold, but the bar of hot is not-hot")

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 25 February 2014 09:35:00PM 0 points [-]

Not any more than I'm bothered by a million other ambiguous words. (Also, as a mathematician, I'm comforted by the fact that there are many precise notions of "opposite" in mathematics.)

Comment author: polymathwannabe 25 February 2014 03:09:27AM 0 points [-]

Slightly off-topic, but the actual complement of red is cyan, and the complement of green is magenta.

Comment author: Tedav 25 February 2014 03:48:34AM *  0 points [-]

I actually acknowledge that deeper in the thread [in the response to PECOS-9], noting that this is the publicly understood complement, despite being wrong: society teaches that the primary colors are Red, Yellow, Blue and not Magenta, Yellow, Cyan.

Comment author: DanielLC 25 February 2014 01:38:42AM 0 points [-]

I'd say that opposite means the opposite side of the spectrum, and not means something other then.

The opposite of hot is cold, and not hot is not hot.

Comment author: shminux 24 February 2014 08:18:15PM *  0 points [-]

Often when people want to emphasize that what they mean is not the complement of the referent, they say "diametrically opposed" or "direct opposite" or "antipode": "the complement of hot [in the set of all temperature perceptions] is not-hot, but the direct opposite of hot is cold".

Comment author: Tedav 24 February 2014 08:32:05PM 0 points [-]

The complement of hot is not-red?

Comment author: shminux 24 February 2014 08:36:46PM -1 points [-]

Thanks, fixed :)

Comment author: Manfred 24 February 2014 07:46:56PM 0 points [-]

For a psychological basis, check out the research on how humans basically represent everything on a single scale (book recommendation: Thinking, Fast and Slow).

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 24 February 2014 08:44:03AM 0 points [-]

In Esperanto, prefix "mal-" means the opposite, "ne-" means the negation.

English equivalents would be "anti-" and "non-".

Comment author: ChristianKl 23 February 2014 09:19:31PM 5 points [-]

The antonym of hot is cold.

The negation of hot is not-hot.

Comment author: Tedav 23 February 2014 09:26:22PM 0 points [-]

That is a very good suggestion.

While better than anything I came up with on my own, I'm not sure that antonym is a perfect fit though.

For one, while hot/cold works, I'm not sure that red/green works.

Plus, antonym has a different connotation - it is the antonym of synonym. Antonym implies a word with the "opposite" meaning, not a concept with the "opposite" meaning.

I wouldn't be comfortable talking about the antonym of a concept.

Does anyone know if there are any languages that don't have this problem?

Comment author: TheOtherDave 23 February 2014 09:14:12PM 2 points [-]

I sometimes use "negation of X" to refer to the logical operator NOT-X.

The other-side-of-a-continuum relationship I don't have a single word for. I might say that the "complement" of green is red, but that's specific to color. I often use "opposite" when I want a generic term here, with the understanding that I'm using it colloquially.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 23 February 2014 08:57:11PM 1 point [-]

"Complement" is sort of a word for the second one.

Comment author: PECOS-9 24 February 2014 01:26:50AM *  1 point [-]

I think complement can mean both too. E.g. red and green are complementary colors, whereas the sets "red" and "not-red" are complements.

Comment author: Tedav 24 February 2014 02:48:02AM 1 point [-]

My sense of the word complement is that if two things are complements, they sum to 1, or some equivalent.

A is the complement of ~A because P(A or ~A) = 1

Red and green are considered to be complementary colors because together they contain all primary colors of pigments. [although, that is based on the societal understanding that the primary colors are Red, Yellow and Blue. This is actually incorrect. For pigments, the primary colors are really Magenta, Yellow, and Cyan. For light, they are Red, Green, and Blue.]

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 22 February 2014 05:36:20PM 2 points [-]

How do I get Philadelphia on the nearest meetups list?

Comment author: Nisan 22 February 2014 05:44:29PM 3 points [-]

Add a meetup with Philadelphia in the location field?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 22 February 2014 06:22:29PM 0 points [-]

Thanks.

Comment author: pianoforte611 22 February 2014 05:09:46AM *  8 points [-]

Arthur Chu was discussed here previously for his success with Jeopardy using careful scholarship to develop strategies that he knew had worked in the past for other people.

In the comments section here he makes a much more extreme case against LessWrong's policy of not censoring ideas than Apophemi did a while back. Frankly he scares me*. But on a more concrete note, he makes a number of claims I find disturbing:

1) Certain ideas/world-views (he targets Reaction and scientific racism) are evil and therefore must be opposed at all costs even if it means using dishonest arguments to defeat them.

2) The forces that oppose social justice (capitalism, systematic oppression) don't play nice, so in order to overcome those forces it is necessary to get your hands dirty as well.

3) Sitting around considering arguments that are evil (he really hates scientific racism) legitimizes them giving them power.

4) Carefully considering arguments accomplishes nothing in contrast to what social justice movement is doing which at least is making progress. Hence considering arguments is contrary to the idea of rationality as winning. (This seems extreme, I hope I am misreading him)

5) Under consequentialism, if intellectual dishonesty and rhetoric (the dark arts) are capable of advancing the causes of people that are good and opposing the forces of evil, then intellectual dishonesty and rhetoric are good.

There is some redundancy there but whatever.

*I mean this literally, I am actually physically frightened.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 23 February 2014 09:01:50PM 4 points [-]

I suppose this does mean that no-one should believe any claims he makes before checking them first.

Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2014 12:19:14AM 11 points [-]

I mean this literally, I am actually physically frightened.

Why are you physically frightened of a random Internet blowhard?

Comment author: bogus 22 February 2014 06:02:59PM *  5 points [-]

The clearest statement of Chu view (from the comment thread) seems to be: "As a very tentative general heuristic ... major ideologies that attempt to validate some form of the just-world fallacy should be terminated with extreme prejudice." He correctly names sexism ("Men have all the power because they're just better!") and racism ("Europeans have all the power because they're just better!") as examples.

But the obvious problem is, if you buy the neo-reactionary model of how "the Cathedral" works, then social-justice progressivism is a clear-cut example of a massive just-world-fallacy in action! What's more, I'd hardly expect Moldbug or other neo-reactionaries to take the view that "the world is inherently fair" seriously, even as hidden, low-level implication. And whether Moldbug's worldview is right about the Cathedral is an empirical question that would seem to require serious, rational investigation, not just faith-based political commitment.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 01:02:24AM *  1 point [-]

The clearest statement of Chu view (from the comment thread) seems to be: "As a very tentative general heuristic ... major ideologies that attempt to validate some form of the just-world fallacy should be terminated with extreme prejudice." He correctly names sexism ("Men have all the power because they're just better!") and racism ("Europeans have all the power because they're just better!") as examples.

This is not just world fallacy, in fact for specific values of "better" these are empirical statements. Or would he (and/or you) consider statements along the lines of "I defeated him in the fight because I was stronger" an example of "just world fallacy". What about "being rational helps me achieve my goals"?

Comment author: bogus 23 February 2014 02:46:34AM *  3 points [-]

This is not just world fallacy, in fact for specific values of "better" these are empirical statements.

No, the "just world fallacy" is a belief that the world always reaches morally "fair" outcomes. So "better" here has to mean that they deserve such outcomes in a moral sense. My guess is that many people here would reject these claims and find them quite objectionable, but it's hard to deny that some followers of the Dark Enlightenment (albeit perhaps a minority) seem to be motivated by them. The just world fallacy (in addition to other biases, such as ingroup tribalism) provides one plausible explanation of this.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 02:51:15AM *  1 point [-]

No, the "just world fallacy" is a belief that the world always reaches morally "fair" outcomes. So "better" here has to mean that they deserve such outcomes in a moral sense.

Ok, so which moral theory are we using to make that determination?

Someone who behaves more rationally is more likely to achieve his goals. Do you consider this a "fair" or "unfair" outcome?

Comment author: Ritalin 22 February 2014 11:07:05AM *  -1 points [-]

Frankly, he has my sympathies, and I say this speaking as one who is now officially and technically a fucking scientific racist, and is hating every minute of it. The increase in knowledge doesn't even seem worth the sacrifice; we're talking about differences in average IQ between 95, 105, 110, 115. For one such as I, who's got an IQ of 168, this degree of difference seems unimpressive, and, frankly, worth ignoring/not worth knowing.

"You're telling me all these massive groups of people have these slight differences in average between them? About one standard deviation? Of what use could this information possibly be?" "Let's forbid entrance to my particular country to immigrants from the inferior races, namely, people of 'african' and 'hispanic' ancestry; it's cheaper than giving everyone an IQ test. Is this not a clever idea that advances my nation's interest and saves taxpayer money?"

And then I sigh at the stupidity of people with high IQ's, myself included.

Nevertheless, pianoforte, you're definitely overreacting. Do give your friend Arthur some references on Ethical Injunctions and remind him of our Litanies. Even if you did nothing, I do not expect Arthur, or any lesswronger for that matter, to present a level of threat worth having actual cold sweats over.

Here's another argument you can give him; social justice seeks to achieve just ends, and to do so requires just means, an image of justice as well as a just system. To seek social justice is to seek righteousness, and to seek to be right; it demands that you be scrupulously rational. Since You Provably Can't Trust Yourself, you should not, cannot allow yourself to employ the methods of evil, of which irrationality, stupidity and incoherence are the very essence. Throughout my life, I have been in contact with all kinds of people who invested huge amounts of effort in struggling for the betterment of mankind, and, whenever they started thinking in martial terms, of Us Versus Them (see Robbers-Cave experiment), of a struggle where one allows oneself all dirty tricks because so does "the other side", Arguments Are Soldiers, and they lose themselves and their ability to identify the truth when it doesn't fit their narrative. And that's a huge handicap.

Keeping a clear mind and remaining open to the truth, no matter how inconvenient, is, I think, the only way to live through one's life, and remain sane to the very end. Once you forfeit your sanity, no matter your successes, you have lost.

Comment author: ChristianKl 23 February 2014 09:23:22PM 3 points [-]

For one such as I, who's got an IQ of 168, this degree of difference seems unimpressive, and, frankly, worth ignoring/not worth knowing.

Where did you get your IQ tested?

Comment author: bogus 22 February 2014 06:10:08PM *  -2 points [-]

Frankly, he has my sympathies, and I say this speaking as one who is now officially and technically a fucking scientific racist

Unless you just stepped out of a time machine, I highly doubt that you are actually a scientific racist. You might be a race realist, but "scientific racism" specifically refers to the views one usually finds e.g. in 19th century and early 20th century sources, that were clearly plagued by massive ingroup/outgroup biases. Just because it had "scientific" in the name does not mean it was actually science-based in any real sense, any more than Karl Marx's socialism was.

Comment author: pragmatist 23 February 2014 01:45:31AM 5 points [-]

"Race realism" is what proponents of the view call it. Opponents don't call it that, for obvious reasons. Many of them do actually refer to the view as "scientific racism".

Comment author: Ritalin 22 February 2014 07:03:56PM -2 points [-]

So it's like rationalism in the Carthesian sense as opposed to the Yudkowskian? That's a relief. Now how do I stop people from confusing me with those balls back a measuring phrenologists?

Comment author: drethelin 22 February 2014 04:57:13PM 4 points [-]

If you could erase your knowledge of racial IQ differences would you? Assume you also erase the specific urge to rediscover it later.

Comment author: Ritalin 22 February 2014 05:06:12PM *  0 points [-]

Why? Besides enabling my enemies to call me a racist in much the same way a segregationist would call MLK a criminal, it leaves me right where I started. The initial emotional turmoil is offset by the anecdote utility: "Would you believe that I was once talked into becoming a freaking racist? Me?" This goes straight on my "hilarious misadventures" files, right next to "almost drowned in a lake"' "fell in love with a one-night-stand, suffered horribly, now we're BFF's"' and "that one time I was slipped ecstacy".

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 01:22:38AM 3 points [-]

Besides enabling my enemies to call me a racist in much the same way a segregationist would call MLK a criminal,

So you don't like having low status true beliefs?

Comment author: Ritalin 23 February 2014 01:46:29AM *  7 points [-]

Eugine, at the risk of stating the obvious, I don't like that being known to have those true beliefs lowers my status and gets in the way of me doing good. I think it's unfair, and I find it frustrating.

Comment author: drethelin 22 February 2014 05:06:51PM 0 points [-]

well except without the mental anguish you seemed to have about it.

Comment author: Ritalin 22 February 2014 05:33:13PM 0 points [-]

Water under the bridge.

Comment author: Ritalin 23 February 2014 02:19:16AM 1 point [-]

Am I getting downvotes for my ability to get over my anguish in accepting inconvenient truths? Cause I don't know how else to interpret this.

Comment author: RowanE 23 February 2014 06:02:08PM 0 points [-]

Your holding these beliefs is not entirely in the past, and it doesn't seem like there's any reason to think the consequences of holding these beliefs are entirely in the past, making it impossible for you to have gotten over them.

Comment author: Ritalin 23 February 2014 11:44:51PM 1 point [-]

I've gotten over my emotional distress over acquiring them, and am now dealing with them and the consequences of holding them in a more practical manner. The anguish is gone, replaced with mild annoyance.

Comment author: pianoforte611 22 February 2014 04:10:04PM *  3 points [-]

I don't actually know him (I didn't comment on that thread), and I'm not claiming my fear is rational. Yes, the result of blinding yourself is that you run the risk of making the world worse and hurting people in the process, including the people that were trying to help.

If you're unhappy with being a scientific racist (I hate that term - if it describes the way the world is then its just science) then maybe you should take a look at the other side of the debate. Then again, some people might accuse Kees Jan Kan of being racist for acknowledging the IQ differences, even if he argues against genetic causes.

The knowledge matters because people have been trying for decades to equalize outcomes for different groups - in terms of achievement and crime. If this is not possible, and there are casualties in the cross fire (say teachers getting fired for not getting minorities to perform at the same level) then we need to change our approach. If you could acknowledge that the causes of violent crime are biological in nature and then suggest biological interventions (someone on LessWrong recently suggested fish pill oils to correct for micronutrient deficiencies), how many lives would be saved? How many people would be spared a life of crime? If you could acknowledge that culture problems and social multipliers have huge effects on adult criminality and success, and make policy decisions based on that (although this problem is very difficult) how many more lives could be saved? If the political climate only allows you to say that different outcomes are the result of the discriminatory schooling system, those nasty racists and the prejudiced authorities - then your interventions aren't going to work and there will be needless casualties. The knowledge certainly does matter.

Comment author: Ritalin 22 February 2014 05:01:59PM *  1 point [-]

the causes of violent crime are biological in nature and then suggest biological interventions

For a moment there, I feared you'd speak of genetics and eugenics, but then

(someone on LessWrong recently suggested fish pill oils to correct for micronutrient deficiencies)

if you mean something as prosai as dietetics, I can totally get behind that; I find it easy to believe that crappy food induces cranky mood (and that, in the US, crappy cheap food is remarkably deleterious).

If you could acknowledge that culture problems and social multipliers have huge effects on adult criminality and success, and make policy decisions based on that (although this problem is very difficult) how many more lives could be saved?

Is this not acknowledged? Nay, is this not common knowledge?

If the political climate only allows you to say that different outcomes are the result of the discriminatory schooling system, those nasty racists and the prejudiced authorities

Putting the full blame on them is as absurd as fully absolving them. What insane political climate do you live in, that you'd have to settle for either fallacy?

if it describes the way the world is then its just science

I remain unconvinced that this is exactly the case, and, even though I can accept its provisional validity, with many caveats and reservations, I'm pretty sure the actual reality is more interesting than "blacks and latinos are born dumber, White-Jews and White-Asian nerds are born smarter, and White-Christians are born a little bit smarter than average".

Assuming this particular piece of knowledge matters, what are we supposed to do about it? Be more forgiving of teachers' inability to enable black students to reach some average standard? Allocate Jewish and Asian kids less resources and demand that they meet higher standards? Should we treat kids differently, segregating them by race or by IQ? What practical use do we even have for scientific racism?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 01:48:22AM *  0 points [-]

For a moment there, I feared you'd speak of genetics and eugenics

By the way, do you have a rational argument for why we shouldn't speak of genetics and eugenics?

Comment author: Ritalin 23 February 2014 01:59:59AM 0 points [-]

Generics are great. We need more of those. Patented drugs are way overpriced.

As for eugenics, depends on what we're talking about. Is it "eugenics" as in "let's genome-test embryos for horrible congenital diseases" or is it "eugenics" as in "let's castrate every physically and mentally handicapped person whose disease is inheritable"? When I said "I feared you'd speak of genetics and eugenics", I meant "I feared that you'd suggest the latter as policy".

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 02:02:44AM -2 points [-]

Is it "eugenics" as in "let's genome-test embryos for horrible congenital diseases" or is it "eugenics" as in "let's castrate every physically and mentally handicapped person whose disease is inheritable"

Isn't the latter the "right thing to do" (tm) according to a utilitarian calculation? (Disclaimer, I am not a utilitarian.)

Comment author: Ritalin 23 February 2014 02:07:36AM *  1 point [-]

I wouldn't know; neither am I. I tend to find that utilitarian calculations are above my competence. As Dr. Manhattan said to Ozymandias, when he asked him if he did the right thing in the end; "Nothing ever ends."

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 01:47:34AM *  5 points [-]

Assuming this particular piece of knowledge matters, what are we supposed to do about it? Be more forgiving of teachers' inability to enable black students to reach some average standard? Allocate Jewish and Asian kids less resources and demand that they meet higher standards? Should we treat kids differently, segregating them by race or by IQ? What practical use do we even have for scientific racism?

For starters we can stop concluding that an outcome that correlates with race means that the process was racially biased. In particular, eliminate affirmative action and disparate impact.

Comment author: Ritalin 23 February 2014 02:03:29AM *  0 points [-]

What's desperate impact? And not all affirmative action is racial. The kind I'm familiar with consists basically of scholarships for smart kids from poor families to go to prestigious schools and reach their full potential, regardless of racial background. And women's parity quotas, which are a clumsy-as-heck-policy that annoys everyone, women included. What kind are you familiar with?

Comment author: asr 23 February 2014 03:27:22AM 8 points [-]

The kind I'm familiar with consists basically of scholarships for smart kids from poor families to go to prestigious schools and reach their full potential, regardless of racial background.

In US political debates about affirmative action, the term usually is meant to imply an overt lower admissions or hiring standard for the group that the affirmative action is supposedly helping.

Scholarships for smart kids from poor families are uncontroversial, and therefore don't come up much in political discourse.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 02:17:35AM 3 points [-]

What's desperate impact?

Sorry, typo. I meant disparate.

And women's parity quotas, which are a clumsy-as-heck-policy that annoys everyone, women included.

Good, I'm glad you see that this is a bad idea.

What kind are you familiar with?

The kind where universities admit unqualified minority kids in order to have a "diverse student body".

Comment author: Ritalin 23 February 2014 02:20:36AM *  1 point [-]

Do they get qualified along the way, or do they actually prove themselves to be persistently and irredeemably incompetent?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 02:23:46AM 4 points [-]

They tend to wind up dropping out.

Comment author: [deleted] 23 February 2014 10:01:07AM 0 points [-]

Doesn't that mean that the ones who don't drop out aren't that less ... than ... ?

Comment author: Ritalin 23 February 2014 02:26:04AM *  0 points [-]

Regardless of why this is so, wouldn't this outcome make the policy ineffectual and not worth continuing?

Also why in the world did that comment get a down-vote? Is there someone here lurking, down-voting my posts on principle?

Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2014 12:23:41AM *  1 point [-]

What practical use do we even have for scientific racism?

For someone who claims an IQ of 168 you asked, frankly speaking, a stupid question.

Comment author: [deleted] 23 February 2014 09:36:46AM 3 points [-]

The question he literally asked may well be stupid, but I think it's charitable to interpret it as asking what practical use we have for scientific racism that wouldn't violate some ethical injunctions. Likewise, if someone asked how to kill all the fleas on a cat I'd assume they mean that the cat must remain alive and in good health (example taken from here).

Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2014 04:43:35PM 3 points [-]

The question he literally asked may well be stupid, but I think it's charitable to interpret it as asking what practical use we have for scientific racism that wouldn't violate some ethical injunctions.

It would be a long stretch.

In any case, I would have normally let it slide if not for a particular sentence in a {grand}parent post...

...we're talking about differences in average IQ between 95, 105, 110, 115. For one such as I, who's got an IQ of 168, this degree of difference seems unimpressive, and, frankly, worth ignoring/not worth knowing.

Comment author: Ritalin 23 February 2014 01:22:21AM 0 points [-]

I never shied away from those; they tend to be useful.

Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2014 03:52:03AM 2 points [-]

Not this kind -- ones to which a variety of answers become apparent after spending a minute thinking about it...

Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2014 12:22:30AM 3 points [-]

White-Asian

That's an interesting moniker.

So, you think that the humanity is divided into Whites and Blacks, it's just that there are White-Caucasians, White-Asians, etc...?

Comment author: Ritalin 23 February 2014 01:26:15AM *  0 points [-]

Hardly. I myself change colour all the time, depending on how much sun I get. But it would appear that the races "scientific racism" as I understand it classifies as smarter, are all of paler disposition overall; "whites" in the traditional sense, european jews, and east asians. Calling them all White-X is a way of drawing attention to this strange fact. Is there something about sunlight deprivation that sharpens the mind?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 03:52:51AM 3 points [-]

I'm not sure about that. I don't have statistics, anecdotally dark skinned Indians appear to be comparable to East Asians.

Comment author: Ritalin 23 February 2014 10:56:53AM -1 points [-]

Indians have very varied skin tones, ranging from the very very dark all the way to the very very pale.

Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2014 03:45:28AM 4 points [-]

East Asians (and specifically Han Chinese) were never called White.

Is there something about sunlight deprivation that sharpens the mind?

No, but I suspect that the necessity to survive the winter led to increased evolutionary pressures.

Comment author: Ritalin 23 February 2014 10:40:25AM 1 point [-]

I would hardly consider places like the valley of the Congo or Australia or the Sahara to be evolutionarily soft.

Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2014 04:37:04PM 7 points [-]

I would hardly consider places like the valley of the Congo or Australia or the Sahara to be evolutionarily soft.

Evolution can push development into different directions. Winters promote long-term thinking and planning. The Congo basin probably promotes resistance to parasites and infections....

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 04:14:15AM 4 points [-]

Perhaps, on the other hand the places where civilizations first developed, i.e., Egypt, the Fertile Crescent, the Indus Valley, Central America, don't have harsh winters; I'm not sure about the Yellow River, but my brief Googling suggested their winters aren't that harsh either.

Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2014 04:45:39AM 10 points [-]

The best geography/climate to develop a civilization is not necessarily the best geography/climate to produce high intelligence. Early civilizations arose in places where agriculture was productive enough to generate significant surplus.

Comment author: Username 22 February 2014 07:59:03PM 21 points [-]

Assuming this particular piece of knowledge matters, what are we supposed to do about it? Be more forgiving of teachers' inability to enable black students to reach some average standard? Allocate Jewish and Asian kids less resources and demand that they meet higher standards? Should we treat kids differently, segregating them by race or by IQ? What practical use do we even have for scientific racism?

It's not even that we would need to use it, just that denying it would be harmful.

Without taking sides on the object-level debate of whether it's true or not, let me sketch out some ways that, if scientific racism were true, we would want to believe that it was true. In the spirit of not making this degenerate further, I'll ignore everything to do with eugenics, and with partisan issues like affirmative action.

(1) Racial differences tend to show up most starkly on IQ tests. This has led to the cultural trope that IQ is meaningless or biased or associated with racism. This has led to a culture in which it is unacceptable (borderline illegal depending on exactly how you do it) to use IQ tests in situations like employment interviews. But employers continue to want highly intelligent employees.

This encourages credentialism - the use of prestigious college degrees as a marker for intelligence. This means everyone needs to get a prestigious college degree. This means someone who wants to practice Law or Marketing needs to go $120,000 in debt and waste four years of their life getting a degree in Art History to present at their interview.

This decreases social mobility since poor people aren't going to be able to get into Harvard at the same rate as rich people.And it leaves everyone hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, forcing them to optimize for high-paying jobs like finance rather than socially productive ones. And it sticks our economy precariously on top of an even bigger mountain of debt than before.

(2) If scientific racism is true but everyone insists violently that it is false, we can't explicitly describe this state of affairs: "Psssst, all that racist stuff we're attacking is actually true, but you're not supposed to talk about it. Pass it on."

But we would expect smart and intellectually honest people who study science and understand statistics to eventually figure out it is true. For whatever reason, smart and intellectually honest people seem unusually bad at picking up non-explicit social norms, so they're likely to respond with "HEY! GUYS! ALL THAT SCIENTIFIC RACISM WE'VE BEEN VIOLENTLY ATTACKING AS ACTUALLY TRUE! WEIRD, ISN'T IT?" Everyone will then violently attack them as racist and they will be traumatized.

The end result is that a lot of the smartest and most intellectually honest people hate the rest of society and are hated by them in turn. The dumber and less intellectually honest you are, the more likely you are to remain unostracized and end up being a "thought leader".

(3) If scientific racism were true, we would expect the fields of academic intelligence research and population genetics to know about it and generally believe it. We would then expect those fields to either be loathed and discredited by the general population for this reason, or else retreat to a hedgehogesque defensive posture, or else exist in a constant low-grade civil war.

All of these things seem to be true to a degree. Just to give one example, Arthur Jensen, whom everyone including his enemies agrees was smart and nice and intellectually honest, who helped pioneer the intelligence research field - got literally burned in effigy, had people threaten to kill his children, and eventually had to hire bodyguards just to go around campus. This seems like it might disincentivize people to study intelligence.

But I think intelligence research and associated areas are some of the most important fields that exist! These are the people who discovered we could increase IQ five to ten points by iodizing salt! These are the people who noticed that lead decreases IQ and very likely also executive function and so probably was responsible for like the entire giant crime wave of the latter half of this century which we successfully reversed by banning lead. These are people so awesome that I strongly suspect if we took a billion dollars away from the physicists and gave it to the intelligence researchers, then in thirty years we would have more intelligence research and probably also more physics.

And so we should be trying encourage them to continue doing good work, and one way we might do this is by not threatening to kill their children.

If scientific racism is true, then believing it is true will make us less likely to do things like threaten to kill the children of intelligence researchers because they are engaged in disproving it.

(You may say "But we could argue with them without using violence!" But how exactly do you think you are going to prevent a true thing from coming out, for all time, without using desperate measures?)

(4) Tiny advantages in mean or variance magnify with every standard deviation you go from the center of the bell curve. So if scientific racism were true, we would expect high-IQ communities to come from disproportionately high-IQ groups. The Southern Baptist Church would be laudably diverse, but the atheist community would be full of nerdy white/Asian/Jewish/Indian men, easily abbreviate to "nerdy white dudes".

If it is assumed that all differences in group membership are because groups are racist, exclusionary, or bullying, this means that all high-IQ groups will be accused of racism, exclusion, and bullying and be considered bad people. No doubt there will be some genuine incidents of such in these groups (as there are in all groups) and these will be seized upon as proof.

So high-IQ groups will once again end up either loathed by the general population, in defensive hedgehog postures, or in a state of low-grade civil war (cf: the modern atheist movement)

But presumably high-IQ groups are smart and have ideas worth listening to. When they get ignored and marginalized, that either gives comfort to false or harmful ideas like evangelical religion, or creates this really creepy situation where very powerful people who help shape the world are suspected by, and suspicious of, everyone else (like what seems to be developing with Silicon Valley tech culture).

(5) If scientific racism is true, then we need to use dark side epistemology to deny it.

For example, a lot of people's chosen strategy is to just deny that race exists or that genes can differ systematically across human populations. But the drug carbamazepine is a safe and effective anticonvulsant in white and black people, but has a significant risk of causing a fatal skin reaction in Asian people.

So we have to manage this complicated balancing act where we must get everybody to intone that Genes Cannot Differ Systematically Across Human Populations, except doctors, whom we tell For God's Sake Genotype All Your Asian Patients Before Giving Them Carbamazepine. One hopes this works.

Other people's chosen strategies to deny scientific racism are to make bringing up problems involving certain races taboo. For example, my experience (is it yours?) is that if someone talks about "inner city crime" or "urban decay", someone else will interject "You're just using 'inner city' and 'urban' as euphemisms for black people, you racist!"

But inner city crime and urban decay are real problems, and ones that disproportionately victimize poor people and minorities.

The most convincing explanation I have heard for these problems is that inner cities massively overconcentrate lead, which is neurotoxic and causes crime/impulsivity. This is a highly solvable problem. But solving it would require us to say things like "the population of inner cities is neurologically disturbed", which would require discussing the problem, which is something that we have to prevent people from doing in order to discourage scientific racism.

One final Dark Side strategy people use is to say "If we admitted scientific racism, we would have to commit genocide against these supposedly inferior populations, which we don't want to do."

Never mind that this wouldn't actually happen. Think about people with Down Syndrome.

Our culture's not perfect at tolerating them, but it's as good as it is at tolerating any other group, and this success didn't require claiming they had exactly equal IQ or were exactly equal along any other dimension except basic human dignity, which is not and shouldn't be a scientifically testable claim.

The truth is robust. Lies are flimsy. If we go with lies, we might accidentally back ourselves into a corner where our stated position commits us to thinking people with Down Syndrome are inferior human beings without any basic human rights.

If we honestly and openly declare we really think - "We can leave the field of small population differences to the scientists, but everyone deserves to be treated compassionately regardless of what they find" - then we are freed from the complicated task of keeping our lies straight, and we might find it has some knock-on benefits somewhere down the line.

Comment author: James_Miller 23 February 2014 02:12:19AM *  6 points [-]

One final Dark Side strategy people use is to say "If we admitted scientific racism, we would have to commit genocide against these supposedly inferior populations, which we don't want to do." Never mind that this wouldn't actually happen. Think about people with Down Syndrome.

"About 92% of pregnancies in the United Kingdom and Europe with a diagnosis of Down syndrome are terminated. In the United States termination rates are around 67%" Wikiepdia

Comment author: Username 23 February 2014 11:45:49AM 1 point [-]

So what would be the analogous behaviour w.r.t. races?

Comment author: James_Miller 23 February 2014 04:32:18PM 1 point [-]

No analogy with respect to voluntary (via the mom) abortions, but one with many members of society being comfortable with significantly reducing the population size of the group.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 01:37:56AM *  0 points [-]

The most convincing explanation I have heard for these problems is that inner cities massively overconcentrate lead, which is neurotoxic and causes crime/impulsivity.

That's one explanation, I'm curious why you find it the most convincing.

Edit: if it is just lead, how come the correlation between race and IQ seems to persist across countries?

Comment author: [deleted] 23 February 2014 09:56:39AM 1 point [-]

Various explanations aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Comment author: pragmatist 23 February 2014 01:33:53AM *  5 points [-]

The most convincing explanation I have heard for these problems is that inner cities massively overconcentrate lead, which is neurotoxic and causes crime/impulsivity. This is a highly solvable problem. But solving it would require us to say things like "the population of inner cities is neurologically disturbed", which would require discussing the problem, which is something that we have to prevent people from doing in order to discourage scientific racism.

The lead-crime link was brought to public attention by a prominent liberal journalist, writing in a prominent liberal/progressive magazine. As far as I'm aware, there was no huge outcry about this. In fact, the article was widely linked and praised in the liberal blogosphere. I am pretty sure that Drum and the editors at Mother Jones would denounce scientific racism quite vigorously if asked about it. So I think you are overestimating the "chilling effect" produced by a taboo against scientific racism.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 23 February 2014 01:24:32AM *  3 points [-]

Your comment seems to make many good points. However, I identified a few evident falsehoods in areas I know something about, which leads me to suspect a similar laxity with the truth in areas I know less about.

For instance:

This means someone who wants to practice Law or Marketing needs to go $120,000 in debt and waste four years of their life getting a degree in Art History to present at their interview.

If you want to practice law, you're best served by studying lab sciences, math, or government in undergrad. (Those are the undergraduate majors with the highest admittance rate to law school.) Then you go to law school, which is where you incur the goatloads of debt.

The fact that you can't get admitted to the bar (in most of the U.S.) without going to law school is not a result of anyone's ideology about intelligence. This policy change was adopted explicitly by states in response to pressure by the American Bar Association beginning in the 1890s. IQ testing didn't even exist then. (And for what it's worth, scientific racism was at that time deemed progressive.)

Comment author: epursimuove 04 July 2014 04:31:33PM 0 points [-]

(Those are the undergraduate majors with the highest admittance rate to law school.)

Does this control for different average IQ (or SAT, if you prefer) among different majors?

Comment author: bramflakes 22 February 2014 12:44:40PM *  8 points [-]

The increase in knowledge doesn't even seem worth the sacrifice; we're talking about differences in average IQ between 95, 105, 110, 115. For one such as I, who's got an IQ of 168, this degree of difference seems unimpressive, and, frankly, worth ignoring/not worth knowing.

Come now, you know how normal distributions work. Small differences in means cause over-representation at the extreme ends of the scale. From your IQ I can predict a ~30-40% chance of you being Ashkenazi, despite them being a global minority, just because of a "slightly" higher mean of 110. This is an important thing.

(EDIT: This calculation uses sd=15, which may or may not be a baseless assumption)

Plus, maybe there's a reverse-"Level above mine" effect going on here. The difference between someone at 90 and someone at 110 might not seem big to you, but it might just be your provincialism talking.

(Agreed about the immigration rationalization though)

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 01:35:48AM 3 points [-]

(Agreed about the immigration rationalization though)

Um, as far as immigration. You may have noticed that some countries are much nicer places to live then others, i.e., some have low crime and highly functioning economies and others are poor crime filled hell-holes. Why is that? Is it that something about being north of the Rio Grande magically makes people more productive and less prone to commit violent crimes? <\sarcasm>

The main reason is the people and culture of those countries. Thus if you import too many people from a different country, the pleasantness of the country to live will depend on the the nature of the new people. Notice that this argument assumes nothing about the role of nature versus nurture.

Comment author: polymathwannabe 24 February 2014 11:23:52PM 1 point [-]

The main reason is the people and culture of those countries.

Both Koreas are ethnically and culturally the same. What makes one a SF near-utopia and the other a starving disgrace is the accident of having fallen within opposite spheres of influence during the Cold War and the subsequent development of radically different political systems. One could argue something similar happened with pre-unification Germany. I've read somewhere that the relative poverty in rural Southern Italy and wealth in industrial Northern Italy mirror the North-South dynamics of Reconstruction USA.

Comment author: drethelin 25 February 2014 02:00:05AM 1 point [-]

You seem to not know what culture means

Comment author: polymathwannabe 25 February 2014 02:09:04AM *  1 point [-]

In fairness to your criticism, I must say: That downvote did not come from me.

Comment author: bramflakes 23 February 2014 11:09:58AM 0 points [-]

Yep, and I totally agree. The point I'm making is that with immigration we can afford to have more finely-grained selection criteria. Instead of a blanket ban on immigrants from third-world hellholes, we can at least choose the best ones.

Comment author: Randy_M 24 February 2014 11:14:49PM 2 points [-]

Again, provided we are comfortable with disparate impact and all.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 08:22:36PM 2 points [-]

I would support such a policy, provided the criteria aren't easily gamable.

Comment author: [deleted] 23 February 2014 10:13:11AM -1 points [-]

Notice that this argument assumes nothing about the role of nature versus nurture.

Well, if productivity and proneness to commit violent crimes depended only of nurture, the children of those people would resemble people from the country where they're growing up, rather than their parents, so the problem would only exist for first-generation immigrants.

Comment author: RowanE 23 February 2014 06:05:32PM 2 points [-]

Most people are raised largely by their parents, so the parents would have a large effect on how the children are nurtured.

Comment author: [deleted] 01 March 2014 03:58:20PM *  -1 points [-]

I took “nurture” to refer to socialization, and it turns out that parents are much less important than same-age peers (e.g. people who grow up in a different place than their parents did end up with the accent of the former), but I had forgotten that of course literal nurture also matters.

Comment author: drethelin 23 February 2014 05:52:12PM 4 points [-]

This is only true if we enforce strict integration of immigrant families, but where there are large populations of immigrants they tend to form enclaves where their social circles consist of other immigrants. Hence little tokyo, chinatowns, and whatnot.

Comment author: pianoforte611 22 February 2014 03:46:21PM *  0 points [-]

One reason why small differences in average IQ might matter are social amplifier models. The discussion in this paper talks about it a bit.

Comment author: Username 22 February 2014 02:08:25PM 7 points [-]

Come now, you know how normal distributions work. Small differences in means cause over-representation at the extreme ends of the scale. From your IQ I can predict a ~30-40% chance of you being Ashkenazi, despite them being a global minority, just because of a "slightly" higher mean of 110. This is an important thing.

I think we have to be careful with our mathematics here.

By definition IQ is distributed normally. But if we use this definition of IQ then we don't know how IQ is distributed within each population. In particular even if we assume each population is normal, we don't know they all have the same variance. So I think there's little we can say without looking at the data themselves (which I haven't done).

In this instance it might be better to try to measure intelligence on an absolute scale, and do your comparisons with that scale. I don't know how well that would go.

(I'm using the anonymous account (Username and password are "Username" and "password") since I just want to make a statistical point and not associate myself with scientific racism.)

Comment author: [deleted] 22 February 2014 04:49:58PM 2 points [-]

(I'm using the anonymous account (Username and password are "Username" and "password") since I just want to make a statistical point and not associate myself with scientific racism.)

Oh. I always assumed that was a pseudonymous account of one specific individual.

Comment author: Username 22 February 2014 08:39:45PM *  3 points [-]

About 75% of the posts on this account from the past year are from one user (me). I can't decide on a good moniker for a username so I've been putting off creating a main account.

But yes, feel free to use it as a throwaway.

Comment author: Username 22 February 2014 05:26:15PM 3 points [-]

One of the comments it made early on describes it as a "community throwaway account". Plus it has a super-stupid password.

Comment author: bramflakes 22 February 2014 02:45:56PM 2 points [-]

Yeah that's the tricky part that I forgot to add, we don't know the variance. I used sd=15 but for all I know it could be smaller or larger. Edited to amend.

Comment author: Ritalin 22 February 2014 01:32:21PM *  4 points [-]

As it turns out, I'm a green-eyed, pale-skinned but tan-capable Arab from North Africa. I've got several uncles that look downright East Asian (round face, slanted eyes, pale-skinned), and another side of my family looks south-asian, and another looks downright black, and we have blue-eys blondes, an the traits skip generations and branches, and I find the whole notion of "race" to be laughably vague.

If, like in the US, you put a bunch of Scandinavians, Southwest Africans, and East Asians right next to each other, without miscegenation between their descendants, and with a very distinct social stratification between them, I can see how words like "Hispanic" might sound like they might be meaningful, but in lands like Brazil or Morocco where everyone got mixed with everyone and you got a kaleidoscope of phenotypes popping up in the most unexpected places, the "lines" start looking decidedly more blurry, and, in particular, no-one expects phenotype to be in any way correlated with personality traits, or intelligence, or competence.

And let us not get started on the whole notion of "Ashkenazi" from a genetic standpoint; in fact, the very result that they get the highest IQ results makes me place my bet on a nurture rather than nature cause for the discrepancy. I'm willing to bet actual money on this outcome.

Comment author: bramflakes 22 February 2014 02:54:17PM 4 points [-]

Fair enough. I would still contest that the "nurture" component of these outcomes is smaller than is commonly suggested (Ashkenazim in particular) and that I too would bet money on it.

(Also I'm sorry if I came off as rude before)

Comment author: Ritalin 22 February 2014 03:22:51PM *  2 points [-]

You didn't, as far as I am concerned.

(How would we go about making such bets official?)

Comment author: bramflakes 22 February 2014 03:41:33PM 2 points [-]

I don't know how exactly to translate two difference subjective probabilities to a bet structure, but before that we ought to agree on what exactly we're disagreeing over and what the correct answer would look like to determine who wins.

I think that this would necessarily have to be a long-term thing - maybe the scientific consensus X years from now?

Comment author: shminux 21 February 2014 11:31:02PM 5 points [-]

Word of God: SMBC's Zach Weiner does indeed read Eliezer's work, if not this forum.

Comment author: lukeprog 21 February 2014 08:28:22PM 5 points [-]

Daniel Bell's introduction to The Year 2000 : A Framework for Speculation on the Next Thirty-Three Years (1969) provides a handy half-prolegomenon for what Robin Hanson called "serious futurism":

More than forty years ago, Kegan Paul in England and E.P. Dutton in New York published a series of small books, about eighty in number, entitled Today and Tomorrow, in which some outstanding minds of the time made predictions about the future. The titles were romantic and metaphorical, and this provided a clue to the style and contents of the series...

What is striking about these volumes is their fanciful character, the personal and even prejudiced judgments, the airy and even comical tone, as if the idea of speculating about the future had a somewhat absurd but pleasant quality — in effect, a lack of seriousness... in no sense were these books mean to be anything more than "opinion"...

The uneven competence in the series is apparent as well in the writings of H.G. Wells, the man who inspired all these efforts. In his earlier book Anticipations... Wells predicted some social changes with startling accuracy, and fell flat on his face with others. The reason is that Wells was one of the first writers to see the importance of technology and to derive social consequences from specific innovations... But this reliance on technology gave a mechanistic cast to Wells' thinking, and led him to make some horrendous errors as well...

Reviewing the prophets of the past, one finds lacking in almost all of them — at least in their sociological predictions — any notion of how society hangs together, how its parts are related to one another, which elements are more susceptible to change than others and, equally important, any sense of method. They are not systematic, and they have no awareness of the nature of social systems... If there is a decisive difference between the future studies that are now under way and those of the past, it consists in a growing sophistication about methodology and an effort to define the boundaries... of social systems that come into contact with each other.

Comment author: Ritalin 21 February 2014 02:50:39PM *  -1 points [-]

Anyone seen that 'her' film yet, the one with Joaquin Phoenix in the lead and directed by Spike Jonze? It's a film about a guy falling in love with an AI. Is it any good?

Edit: to summarize, Robin Hanson thinks it works very well as a Pixar-ish whimsical sentimental movie, but not as a realistic interpretation of how a world with that kind of AI would work, despite getting a couple of things right. Other posters, having seen other Spike Jonze projects, and knowing the lead actor's antecedents, suspect the film might be a bit of a prank.

I feel even more interested in watching it now.

Comment author: ESRogs 22 February 2014 12:20:11AM 0 points [-]

FWIW, I liked it a lot! Your summary is good.

Comment author: shminux 21 February 2014 03:38:30PM -2 points [-]

Been discussed here several times. GIYF.

Comment author: Ritalin 21 February 2014 06:22:55PM *  5 points [-]

Well he's beng a rather aloof and unhelpful friend right now; I've done site searches for 'Joaquin Phoenix' and 'Spike Jonze' and neither turned up anything. If you know it has been discussed here several times, could you be so kind as to direct me to them? 'Samantha' is likewise useless, mostly because we have a user who has 'Samantha' for a handle, and because it's a rather generic name. As for 'her', I didn't even bother.

Comment author: shminux 21 February 2014 07:44:25PM *  3 points [-]

Well, yeah, it's not the easiest title to search for. And Google is not being helpful even with link: and site: keywords included.

Still, here is a couple:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/jlu/february_2014_media_thread/ahdf
http://lesswrong.com/lw/jij/open_thread_for_january_17_23_2014/ae5x

There were at least one or two more threads which I can't find after trying for 10 min or so.

Comment author: Ritalin 21 February 2014 06:19:12PM 0 points [-]

How does one look up a film named 'her' anyway?

Comment author: falenas108 21 February 2014 01:50:23PM 0 points [-]

Is there a quick way to quickly go to the last comment page of a user? (Myself in this case.)

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 26 February 2014 04:37:30AM *  0 points [-]

Add ?before=t_1 to the URL: you. If you want to page forward from there also add &count=100000: you.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 21 February 2014 09:02:49PM 1 point [-]

The comments pages of a user have urls of the form

http://lesswrong.com/user/falenas108/comments/?count=25&after=t1_3mby

I'm not quite sure how they work, but the last 4 characters seem to give the index of the last comment on the page before (i.e. later than) the one it shows you (in base 36 or something), so you can try binary searching through these.

I think the link I gave is your earliest comments.

Comment author: gwern 21 February 2014 08:57:59PM 3 points [-]

You could try simply loading all your comments: http://www.ibiblio.org/weidai/lesswrong_user.php?u=falenas108

Comment author: polymathwannabe 21 February 2014 01:58:06PM 0 points [-]

Click on your username.

Comment author: falenas108 21 February 2014 04:37:02PM 0 points [-]

Sorry, by last comment I meant first comment. (As in, first ever posted to this site.) Whoops!

Comment author: polymathwannabe 21 February 2014 05:01:29PM 0 points [-]

There doesn't appear to be an option to sort by earliest/newest. The only method I can think of is going to the list of last comments, scrolling all the way down, and clicking Next until you get to the earliest comments.

Comment author: Markas 21 February 2014 05:51:26AM 1 point [-]

I am looking into noise reduction options for sleeping - I'm a side sleeper, and the foam insert earplugs I've been using so far are extremely uncomfortable to sleep on. It is surprisingly hard to find a comprehensive guide for this that's not trying to sell you something. Do any of the sleep hackers around here have suggestions?

(If this is more appropriate for the stupid questions thread, let me know.)

Comment author: D_Malik 21 February 2014 08:25:18PM *  1 point [-]

I haven't tried this, but you could get a white noise generator, or download a white noise app for your phone, or use http://simplynoise.com/ . Or you could wear a headband over your ears, or (what I do) play ASMR over sleep-compatible headphones.

Comment author: amacfie 21 February 2014 07:40:56PM 2 points [-]

I've had success with Mack's soft silicone earplugs.

Comment author: gwern 20 February 2014 10:20:38PM *  19 points [-]

LWers may find this interesting: someone may've finally figured out how to build a fully distributed prediction market (including distributed judging) on top of blockchains, dubbing it 'Truthcoin'.

The key idea is how judgment of a prediction market is carried out: holders of truthcoins submit encrypted votes 1/0 on every outstanding market, and rather than a simple majority vote, they're weighted by how well they mirror the overall consensus (across all markets they voted on) and paid out a share of trading fees based on that weight. This punishes deviation from the majority and reminds me of Bayesian truth serum.

Clever. I haven't been too impressed with the Bitcoin betting sites I've seen too far (some of them like Bets of Bitcoin are just atrocious), but this seems like a fully decentralized design. The problem is it's so complex that I don't see anyone implementing it anytime soon.

Comment author: ChristianKl 24 February 2014 09:24:50AM 1 point [-]

The problem is it's so complex that I don't see anyone implementing it anytime soon.

It seems to be a straightforward way to implement a new altcoin.

If someone pays 200,000$ for two man years of programmer time to implement this and then makes 10 million$ with the altcoin that seems to me like a valid business model.

Comment author: Gurkenglas 21 February 2014 04:13:04AM 1 point [-]

Wouldn't evil people farm consensus karma via specifically constructed bets?

Comment author: gwern 21 February 2014 04:04:43PM *  2 points [-]

Hm, how would that work? If you make 1000 nonsense markets and the majority of people refuse to vote on your nonsense bets, then their votes are recorded as 0.5s/neutrals, and you can't diverge from them without being punished, which eliminates any gain from 'good karma' (and if you likewise are neutral, you've spent a lot of money for no particular point).

Comment author: Gurkenglas 22 February 2014 06:55:28PM 0 points [-]

After actually reading some of the pdf, I feel that any possible objections as simple as the one I used there have already been accounted for. Disregard me.

Comment author: Metus 21 February 2014 01:35:35AM 1 point [-]

Though prediction markets have their potential problems, this could be the first in a long series of ever better decentralised prediction markets. I wonder what the legalities will be, similar to how Intrade got into trouble with the US government over regulations regarding commodity derivatives.

Comment author: gwern 21 February 2014 01:39:39AM 0 points [-]

Who do you sue? :)

Comment author: Metus 21 February 2014 11:37:26AM 2 points [-]

There is always someone to sue. Maybe the SEC argues that anyone who runs the client is offering services that need a licence.

Comment author: ChristianKl 24 February 2014 08:49:42AM 2 points [-]

Then it will be hidden behind Tor.

Comment author: jaibot 25 February 2014 07:26:50PM *  0 points [-]

Maybe the SEC argues that running the TOR client is probable cause.

(Several iterations of "But what if" later...)

Maybe someone rules that encrypted or obfuscated communication is probable cause.

(I don't think this is likely, I just wanted to skip to the end of this line of thinking)

...actually, I wonder if anyone's tried to engineer a distributed steganographic cryptocurrency.

Comment author: shminux 20 February 2014 09:23:56PM 6 points [-]

Can one detect intelligence in retrospect?

Let me explain. Let's take the definition of an intelligent agent as an optimizer over possible futures, steering the world toward the preferred one. Now, suppose we look at the world after the optimizer is done. Only one of the many possible worlds, the one steered by the optimizer, is accessible to retrospection. Let's further assume that we have no access to the internals of the optimizer, only to the recorded history. In particular, we cannot rely on it having human-like goals and use pattern-matching to whatever a human would do.

Is there still enough data left to tell with high probability that an intelligent optimizer is at work, and not just a random process? If so, how would one determine that? If not, what hope do we have of detecting an alien intelligence?

Comment author: Vulture 21 February 2014 01:52:10AM *  0 points [-]

This is isomorphic to the problem (edit: not impossibility) of coming up with a fully mind-neutral definition of information entropy, is it not?

Comment author: shminux 21 February 2014 02:54:26AM -1 points [-]

I am not familiar with it, feel free to link or explain...

Comment author: Vulture 21 February 2014 03:12:31AM 0 points [-]

I just edited the above comment, because I had forgotten about Kolmogrov complexity, and in particular how K-complexity varies only by a constant between turing-complete machines. That link should explain it pretty well; now that I remembered this I'm significantly less convinced that the problem is isomorphic.

Comment author: D_Malik 20 February 2014 10:42:31PM 3 points [-]

Omohundro has a paper on instrumental goals that many/most intelligences would converge on. For instance, they would strive to model themselves, to expand their capabilities, to represent their goals in terms of utility functions, to protect their utility functions against change, etc. None of these are universally true because we can just posit a pathological intelligence whose terminal goal is to not do these things. (And to some extent e.g. humans do in fact behave pathologically like that.)

We can say very little "optimizers over possible futures" in full generality, because that concept can be very broad if you define "optimizer" sufficiently broadly. Is a thermostat an intelligence, with the goal of achieving some temperature? Or consider a rock - we can see it as a mind with the goal of continuing its existence, and thus decides to be hard.

Comment author: shminux 20 February 2014 11:34:58PM 0 points [-]

It seems that the paper discusses the inside view of intelligence, not the ways to detect one by its non-human-like artifacts.

I agree that it is hard to tell an intelligence without pattern-matching it to humans, that's why I asked the question in the first place. But there hopefully should be at least some way to be convinced that a rock is not very intelligent, even if you can't put yourself in its crystalline shoes.

Comment author: NoSuchPlace 20 February 2014 10:35:26PM 1 point [-]

Can one detect intelligence in retrospect?

Let me explain. Let's take the definition of an intelligent agent as an optimizer over possible futures, steering the world toward the preferred one.

Yes, at least some of the time. Evolution fits your definition and we know about that. So if you want examples of how to deduce the existence of an intelligence without knowing its goals ahead of time, you could look at the history of the discovery of evolution.

Also, Eliezer has has written an essay which answers your question, you may want to look at that.

Comment author: shminux 20 February 2014 11:27:20PM -1 points [-]

I don't see how Eliezer's criterion of stable negentropic artifacts can tell apart people (alive) from stars (not alive) (this is my go-to counterexample to the standard definitions of life).

Comment author: NoSuchPlace 21 February 2014 12:04:11AM 2 points [-]

I think that the idea is that somethings are very specific specifications, while others aren't. For example a star isn't a particularly unlikely configuration, take a large cloud of hydrogen and you'll get a star. However a human is a very narrow target in design space: taking a pile of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen is very unlikely to get you a human.

Hence to explain stars we don't need posit the existence of a process with a lot of optimization power. However since since humans are a very unlikely configuration this suggests that the reason they exist is because of something with a lot of optimization power (that thing being evolution).

Comment author: shminux 21 February 2014 01:18:21AM -1 points [-]

I see what you are saying, certainly humans are very unlikely to spontaneously form in space. On the other hand, humans are not at all rare on Earth and stars are very unlikely to spontaneously form there.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 February 2014 10:18:33PM 1 point [-]

Let's take the definition of an intelligent agent as an optimizer over possible futures, steering the world toward the preferred one.

That's a very low bar for intelligence, it looks more like a definition of life. Most or all living creatures do this. Some pretty simple software would fit the bill, too.

Comment author: shminux 20 February 2014 10:32:24PM 1 point [-]

Yes, the bar is set low intentionally. I would be pretty happy if we could tell if black-box life is detectable. Again, not relying on pattern-matching to the life on earth, such as DNA, oxygenation for energy, methane release, water presence, or whatever else NASA uses to detect life on Mars. Unless, of course one can prove that some of these are necessary for any life.

Comment author: Nornagest 20 February 2014 10:47:55PM 0 points [-]

There's been quite a bit of speculation regarding alternative biochemistries; however, most of the popular ones seem to have various problems (most often low elemental abundance and inconvenient chemical properties). It's of course difficult to prove that all of them are impossible in a search space the size of the universe, though.

Comment author: drethelin 20 February 2014 10:04:57PM 0 points [-]

I found a watch upon the heath.

Anyway, I think there are enough instrumental goals that even without human-like goals we should be able to recognize crafted tools like watches, hammers, and whatnot.

Comment author: ChristianKl 24 February 2014 08:54:27AM 1 point [-]

How do you know the hammer is crafted while the hammer fish isn't?

Comment author: drethelin 24 February 2014 08:57:50PM 0 points [-]

well one of them is alive and moves around on its own. A hammer is a technological artifact with no visible or even implied means of existing without being crafted. You can't observe baby hammers crafting each other out of raw material in nature.

Comment author: shminux 20 February 2014 10:12:08PM *  0 points [-]

That's pattern-matching to humanity, something I explicitly asked not to rely upon. Unless you can show that instrumental goal convergence is inevitable and independent from terminal goal or value convergence. Can you?

Comment author: drethelin 21 February 2014 12:47:06AM 0 points [-]

I'm having trouble imagining what these terminal goals are that can be optimized toward without having at least some familiar instrumental goals such as timekeeping, attaching things to other things, or murdering entities. Can you give me some examples?

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 20 February 2014 06:13:05PM *  1 point [-]

How do I verify whether the air quality in a room is bad? I'm concerned that being in a particular room is causing me to sneeze.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 February 2014 06:54:29PM 4 points [-]

Well, normally you sneeze (too much) either because the room is too dusty, or because you have a mild allergy to something in that room.

Does the room look dusty? If you don't wipe a horizontal surface, how much dust would accumulate in, say, a week?

The allergy thing is more complicated, but one way to test it would be to take some OTC anti-hystamine and see if that stops your sneezing. If it does you should update towards being allergic to something in that room.

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 20 February 2014 10:16:20PM 0 points [-]

The room is somewhat dusty. Dust accumulates visibly on my desk after something like 4 days, I think.

Comment author: wadavis 20 February 2014 06:36:57PM *  0 points [-]

Bad is hard to quantify.

What particular aspect of bad air quality makes you sneeze? Once we narrow that down we can review options.

Comment author: drethelin 20 February 2014 06:36:09PM 2 points [-]

You can put an air filter in the room for a while and see if there's a noticeable change. If you want to be scientific about it you can ask a friend to turn it on and off at random while you're out of the room

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 February 2014 12:08:48PM *  7 points [-]
Comment author: Gurkenglas 21 February 2014 04:17:51AM 0 points [-]

Couldn't he just publish the lists of errors anonymously?

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 24 February 2014 05:16:42PM 0 points [-]

If he gets the data through Elsevier's system, he isn't really anonymous. And if he wants to do the particular project of this post, he has to get images, which he can't do just by clicking "agree," but he would have to tell them what he was going to do with the images. What's going to happen is that people are going to pirate all journal articles, largely for other reasons. At that point, he can do his project; I don't know whether anonymously. But this is a delay and a lot of wasted effort duplicating existing databases and query infrastructure.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 21 February 2014 11:48:13AM 0 points [-]

Probably yes. But that would be throwing away thousands of future citations -- the currency which these days determines how good a scientist is. :(

Comment author: Gurkenglas 22 February 2014 06:40:30PM *  0 points [-]

Ordinarily, publishing things grants you rewards on the order of the global significance of your work, as measured by its impact on the world of scientific papers. Should he be able to reap greater rewards by targeting the measure instead? (As the GM of a real world science game, I'd allow it, cause it's a neat idea. But if we actually try to refer to the global significance of your work...) This copyright stuff, evil as it may be in the general case, does seem to avert this kind of going meta.

Of course, the real solution in this case is for him to anonymously publish that list of errors along with a hash value whose input he keeps to himself until legislation would have allowed him to non-anonymously publish the list. Optimal number of future citations (even better than if he simply waited for the legislation!) and optimal actual betterment of the world.

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 20 February 2014 04:16:55PM 4 points [-]

I found that post pretty confusing. It turns out that it's about control of databases, and i think copyright is a red herring. He wants to run his program over all published papers and find problems with them. He needs permission of the publisher to do this. He claims that his interpretation of the boiler-plate license doesn't allow that. I think he's mistaken and that in any event he could get permission if he asked. What he really wants to do (from other posts on the blog), that he definitely couldn't get permission for, is to synthesize the literature into a database of chemicals; which the publishers won't allow because they do that by hand.

Also, the title (which you didn't quote) is nonsense. There is no legal obstacle to the editor or referee using computers on new papers, which is the usual meaning of "referee." The problem there is getting the editor to try something new and to put in the necessary effort. Maybe it's easier for this guy to run his software on all papers ever written than to convince lots of editors to run it ahead of time, but difficulty is not a legal difficulty. Everyone would love it if these mistakes were caught in the refereeing process, rather than after the fact.

Comment author: ChristianKl 24 February 2014 09:16:55AM 0 points [-]

He claims that his interpretation of the boiler-plate license doesn't allow that. I think he's mistaken and that in any event he could get permission if he asked.

I think his post is effectively asking in a guess culture way. He wants that the publishers respond and say that their broad license doesn't limit what he's doing.

What he really wants to do (from other posts on the blog), that he definitely couldn't get permission for, is to synthesize the literature into a database of chemicals; which the publishers won't allow because they do that by hand.

Only the American Chemical Society (ACS) does that. The are also registered as a non-profit. The fact that they fight the advancement of science is a huge tragedy.

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 24 February 2014 05:09:02PM 0 points [-]

Only the American Chemical Society (ACS) does that.

He explicitly mentions an Elsevier database as the reason that he's worried about mining Elsevier data.

I think his post is effectively asking in a guess culture way. He wants that the publishers respond and say that their broad license doesn't limit what he's doing.

There is some of that in other posts on the blog. But that particular post is about images. He can't just click "agree" and do what he wants, but he has to explicitly ask them about every image project.

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 20 February 2014 08:04:08AM *  5 points [-]

Thought this article on relationships was well-written and enlightening: How to Pick Your Life Partner.

Comment author: [deleted] 22 February 2014 01:24:16PM 0 points [-]

Gosh, that site is addictive.

Comment author: Sherincall 20 February 2014 04:56:16PM 3 points [-]

While expanding your selection pool has obvious benefits, I think there is a good alternative route with regards to your tiny circle of friends and acquaintances.

Suppose you can easily quantify the partner-compatibility of a person, let's say on a 0-10 scale, probably exponential distribution. The best you can find among your friends is a 6. That's unsatisfactory, so you start searching, and after a while you find an 8, which is satisfactory, and you marry them.

However, this model is flawed: The grades can change over time - both the other person and you can change. These changes are more likely to happen earlier in life, such as during teen years or early twenties. Thus the model would have to be expanded to account for the potential compatibility, or even a function how the compatibility changes with time.

If we were to look at this model, that 6 from high school has a much better potential. In a long term relationship, people effect other people, slowly changing them towards themselves. This process works both ways, so you have two entities slowly pulling each other closer. What can easily happen is that in a few years time that it took to find the 8, you have created an 8. Furthermore, since you were also changed in the process, that 8 might no longer be an 8. It could be a 7, or a 9. It could also have a better rate of change, meaning a potential 10.

I would, however, assume the rate of change slows down as people grow older (I haven't any data to confirm this assumption), meaning a change from a self-made 8 to a natural 8 wouldn't yield much benefits.

To expand on the business metaphor: You are running a business, and you need someone to take the position of CTO. You can look for skilled CTOs, but your existing employees have the advantage of already knowing the company and the business process. No doubt, many external applicants, given two years would be better than any of the existing employees, but how many would be better than existing employee with two extra years of experience as CTO? Basically, you need to plot grade(time) for all applicants, see how long will it take for one of the external ones to beat the employee, and decide whether the loss is worth it.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 20 February 2014 10:47:27AM 6 points [-]

If you’re running a business, conventional wisdom states that you’re a much more effective business owner if you study business in school, create well thought-out business plans, and analyze your business’s performance diligently. But if someone went to school to learn about how to pick a life partner and take part in a healthy relationship, if they charted out a detailed plan of action to find one, and if they kept their progress organized rigorously in a spreadsheet, society says they’re A) an over-rational robot, B) way too concerned about this, and C) a huge weirdo.

No, when it comes to dating, society frowns upon thinking too much about it, instead opting for things like relying on fate, going with your gut, and hoping for the best. The respectable way to meet a life partner is by dumb luck, by bumping into them randomly or being introduced to them from within your little pool.

As the article mentions later, it's not just the society, it's also biology. Well, in the ancient evolutionary environment "your little pool" is all humans that don't try to kill you at the first sight, so it makes sense to find a mate there; and the pool does not change dramatically, so you can pick right now.

if we want to find a happy marriage, we need to think small—we need to look at marriage up close and see that it’s built not out of anything poetic, but out of 20,000 mundane Wednesdays.

No one wants to spend 50 years fake laughing. A life partner doubles as a career/life therapist, and if you don’t respect the way someone thinks, you’re not going to want to tell them your thoughts on work each day, or on anything else interesting that pops into your head, because you won’t really care that much what they have to say about it. Secrets are poison to a relationship, because they form an invisible wall inside the relationship, leaving both people somewhat alone in the world—and besides, who wants to spend 50 years lying or worrying about hiding something?

This is probably also a greater problem now than in the past, because the increasing inferential distances make communication more difficult.

Comment author: [deleted] 20 February 2014 06:52:09AM *  25 points [-]

The Doctrine of Academic Freedom, Let’s give up on academic freedom in favor of justice from the Harvard Crimson

No academic question is ever “free” from political realities. If our university community opposes racism, sexism, and heterosexism, why should we put up with research that counters our goals simply in the name of “academic freedom”?

Instead, I would like to propose a more rigorous standard: one of “academic justice.” When an academic community observes research promoting or justifying oppression, it should ensure that this research does not continue.

This already describes the reality on the ground, though to see it announced explicitly as a good and noble goal, by the upcoming generation, is disturbing. And people like Steven Pinker let are getting old. I'm now updating my trust for the conclusions of academic institutions and culture when they happen to coincide with their political biases downward further.

Comment author: ESRogs 21 February 2014 09:10:50PM 3 points [-]

I am disturbed to see it announced explicitly as a good and noble goal, by the upcoming generation is concerning.

On the other hand, the most-upvoted comments on the article are encouraging. :)

Comment author: Ishaan 21 February 2014 06:14:52PM *  1 point [-]

Ironically enough, it's somewhat surprising that The Crimson didn't censor this article, as it was bound to attract negative press.

I'm hoping the fact that this is just an opinion piece, and that the article is currently in circulation on the internet as an example of what's wrong with academia, and that all the comments are opposed to it, is a sign that this is just the internet bringing the worst things to my attention, and that such thinking will never actually be reflected in any formal policy...if not, I've got some updating to do.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 22 February 2014 01:18:52AM *  5 points [-]

Well, in many ways what this article describes is already the informal policy in many places.

Also, a lot of the bad ideas currently implemented in universities started out as widely mocked editorials and proposals, for example, the currant moral panic about rapists with its ever widening definition of "rape" and "sexual harassment" and its ever shrinking protections for the accused started out as widely mocked proposals.

Comment author: asr 20 February 2014 07:54:57PM *  14 points [-]

I think "from the Harvard Crimson" is a misleading description.

One of their undergraduate columnists had a very silly column. Undergraduates do that sometimes. Speaking as a former student newspaper columnist, often these columns are a low priority for the authors, and they're thrown together in a hurry the night before they're due. The column might not even represent what the author would think upon reflection, let alone what the editorial board of the Crimson as a whole believes. So I wouldn't read too much into this.

(For non-US readers: The Harvard Crimson is the student-produced newspaper of Harvard University. The editors and writers are generally undergraduates and they don't reflect any sort of institutional viewpoint.)

Comment author: Daniel_Burfoot 21 February 2014 05:43:57PM 3 points [-]

So I wouldn't read too much into this.

Well, the observation is that the Crimson is willing to print crazy left-leaning articles. They are certainly not willing to print crazy right-leaning articles. Or even non-crazy right-leaning articles. That tells you something about the overall sociopolitical climate at the university.

Comment author: [deleted] 22 February 2014 12:18:58AM *  9 points [-]

They are certainly not willing to print... even non-crazy right-leaning articles.

That's not really true. Several of their contributors lean right. A few of one of these contributors' articles:

Now it is certainly true that conservative writers are the minority, just as conservatives are a minority in the college as a whole. But the Crimson doesn't discriminate on the basis of political orientation when approving writers.

Comment author: Daniel_Burfoot 22 February 2014 05:59:03AM 2 points [-]

I feel like those articles are very weak counterevidence to my argument. They're more like token, limp-wristed right-leaning contributions that the Crimson has to trot out every now and then to give the impression that they're impartial.

Comment author: asr 21 February 2014 07:02:48PM *  4 points [-]

Well, the observation is that the Crimson is willing to print crazy left-leaning articles. They are certainly not willing to print crazy right-leaning articles.

Are you sure they don't? I can tell you from personal experience that their peer papers, the Cornell Sun and the Daily Princetonian definitely have some right wing cranks to offset the left-wing ones. For the Sun in particular, I think the political spectrum of opinion columnists was a pretty fair proxy for the campus as a whole. And every so often there's a barnburner of an opinion piece in the Prince about how premarital sex is the devil's work.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 February 2014 07:25:05PM 15 points [-]

announced explicitly as a good and noble goal, by the upcoming generation

Undergrad publications print the craziest shit imaginable and sometimes even mean it. I wouldn't expect them to "think" the same way a few years after graduation, though.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 22 February 2014 02:28:49AM -2 points [-]

Depends on what they do after graduation. If they go out into the real world, they will generally get over it. On the other hand, if they stay in academy, they're likely to become even crazier. (Unfortunately, it is the latter who will set future university policy.)

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 20 February 2014 01:51:45PM *  20 points [-]

When an academic community observes research promoting or justifying oppression, it should ensure that this research does not continue.

By the way, this is stupid even from the "we only care about the 'good' people (women, black, trans, etc.)" viewpoint, because the consequences sometimes look like this:

1) Someone suggests there could be biological differences between men and women. Angry screams, research abandoned.

2) Medical research done on volunteers (the expendable males) finds a new cure.

3) It appears that the cure works better for men, and may be even harmful for women (because it was never tested on women separately, and no one even dared to suggest it should be). Angry screams again -- unfortunately no reflection of what actually happened; instead the usual scapegoat blamed again.

More meta lessons for the LW audience: The world is entangled, you can't conveniently split it into separate magisteria. If you decide to remove a part of reality from your model, you don't know how much it will cost you: because to properly estimate the cost of X you need to have X in your model.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 22 February 2014 01:17:14AM 10 points [-]

By the way, here is a recent example of just such a bad consequence for women. Basic summery:

1) Latest extreme sport added to olympics.

2) The playing field and obstacles will be the same for men and women; otherwise, it would be sexist and besides its cheaper to only build one arena. (We will of avoid thinking about why we have separate women's and men's competitions.)

3) Women wind up playing on the area designed for men and frequently get seriously injured at much higher rates.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 22 February 2014 08:42:41AM 6 points [-]

Thoughts about having leagues/categories based on measured potential rather than male/female?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 22 February 2014 09:19:48PM 8 points [-]

1) How do you reliably measure potential? You could have leagues based on ability (similar to the way major/minor league baseball works today). But notice that no one cares about the minors.

2) You do realize the practical effect of this in most sports would be that all the levels above amateur would be massively male dominated?

3) In more violent sports you'd have to deal with the cultural taboo against male on female violence. (You could eliminate that taboo, but somehow I'd don't think the feminists would be happy with that outcome.)

4) The feminists are likely to cry bloody sexism over (2) and (3) above.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 25 February 2014 01:58:50AM 3 points [-]

You can't reliably measure potential, though there's been some work on genes and sports.

Weight (and possibly height) classes would be a start. Not the gender issue, but I think there should be an anti-dehydration standard for sports with weight classes.

Comment author: Vulture 20 February 2014 11:08:34PM *  10 points [-]

A side note to your otherwise excellent comment:

"we only care about the 'good' people (women, black, trans, etc.)"

As someone from the other side of the fence, I should warn you that your model of how liberals think about social justice seems to be subtly but significantly flawed. My experience is that virtually no liberals talk or (as far as I can tell) think in terms of "good" vs. "bad" people, or more generally in terms of people's intrinsic moral worth. A more accurate model would probably be something like "we should only be helping the standard 'oppressed' people (women, black, trans, etc.)". The main difference being that real liberals are far more likely to think in terms of combating social forces than in terms of rewarding people based on their merit.

Comment author: James_Miller 21 February 2014 04:08:26PM 15 points [-]

My model of how liberals think, based on teaching at a left wing college, is that liberals find "politically incorrect" views disgusting.

Comment author: Randy_M 24 February 2014 10:36:50PM 0 points [-]

I thought the research was that liberals didn't have purity axis of morality (Haidt, is it?).

Comment author: badger 24 February 2014 11:38:18PM 8 points [-]

Haidt's claim is that liberals rely on purity/sacredness relatively less often, but it's still there. Some of the earlier work on the purity axis put heavy emphasis on sex or sin. Since then, Haidt has acknowledged that the difference between liberals and conservatives might even out if you add food or environmental concerns to purity.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 25 February 2014 03:17:31PM 8 points [-]

Maybe it's about rationalization. The same feeling could be expressed by one person as: "this is a heresy" (because "heresy" is their party's official boo light) and by another person as: "this could harm people" (because "harming people" is their party's official boo light). But in fact both people just feel the idea is repulsive to them, but can't quickly explain why.

Comment author: ErikM 27 February 2014 09:47:53AM *  5 points [-]

I think this could be generalized into a model with predictions: If we suppose that it's easier to get people to nominally than actually abandon one of Haidt's moral axes (from Wikipedia, to save people some lookups: Care/harm, Fairness/cheating, Liberty/oppression, Loyalty/betrayal, Authority/subversion, and Sanctity/degradation), we should expect that people who disclaim one of the axes will find ways to relabel violations of that axis to make it sound like it's violating a professed axis.

To be specific, if you have a group that officially disclaims the fairness/cheating axis, I expect they'll be quick to explain how cheating is a form of harm. Or drop the care/harm axis, and we'll probably hear about how harm is a form of oppression. And so forth.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 27 February 2014 12:37:14PM 4 points [-]

Related: Fake Morality