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eggman comments on Open Thread for February 18-24 2014 - Less Wrong
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My following queries are addressed to those who have experience using nicotine as a nootropic and/or have learned much about what taking nicotine as a nootropic is like. If you yourself don't match either of these descriptions, but have gained information from those who do, also please feel free to answer my queries. However, references, or citations, backing up the information you provide would be appreciated. If you're aware of another thread, or post, where my concerns, or questions, have previously been addressed, please let me know.
Gwern, appreciated on Less Wrong for the caliber of his analysis, makes the case for experimenting with using nicotine as a nootropic on an occasional basis. For the use of nicotine as a nootropic within the community which is Less Wrong, the most recent date for which I could find data on usage rates was the 2012 Less Wrong survey results:
I haven't used nootropics other than caffeine in the past, but when I was first reading about the promise they might hold for improving my cognition in various ways I was impressed. What was true in general of my impression of nootropics was also true for my impression of nicotine in particular. Upon reading Gwern's analysis, I was excited. However, based upon the survey results, I was surprised that there weren't more Less Wrong users using nicotine more frequently. This could be because P(Less Wrong user taking any uncommon nootropic), or P(Less Wrong user being aware of the uses of uncommon nootropics) might be lower than I would have expected, so P(Less Wrong user taking nicotine as a nootropic) would consequently be lower than I would expect as well.
I asked one of my friends from the rationality meetup I attend if he would use nicotine as a nootropic, and he told me he probably wouldn't. When I asked him the reason for this, he told me he feared the affects addiction of nicotine might have upon him.
Gwern's conclusion on trying nicotine as a nootropic is as follows:
It seems the stigma, perhaps quite justified, around any use of nicotine could be preventing more people from trying nicotine as a nootropic. The fact that the community of Less Wrong seemed less excited about trying nicotine as a nootropic than I used to be is a fact I took as a signal that I was missing something in the risk inherent in trying to take nicotine. That was almost a year ago. Since then, I haven't tried nicotine as a nootropic, or any others, except continued use of caffeine, for that matter.
I want to take another look at nicotine again. With the advent of electronic cigarettes, and their increasing ubiquity, it seems the risk of switching from nicotine patches, or gum, to tobacco products, is lessened. If one were to develop a dependency on nicotine, and then becomes addicted to the use of tobacco products for whatever reason, one could transition back to consuming only nicotine by using electronic cigarettes. So, for the user in question, the health risks associated with the habit could revert back to only those risks posed by the use of nicotine, unmixed with the other harmful ingredients of tobacco products.
Nevertheless, the use of only nicotine itself can pose health risks, which are outlined in the linked review written by Gwern.
So:
if you have considered using nicotine as nootropic, but ultimately didn't pursue its use, what was the reason(s) why you didn't?
if you have used nicotine as a nootropic, if you believe you did experience them, what were the dependency affects like? What impact did they have on your life?
if you have previously used nicotine as a nootropic, but have ceased doing so, what were your reasons for doing so?
if both you and someone else you know have used nicotine as a nootropic, and the quality of your respective experiences differed substantially, how? Why do you believe this was/is the case?
for those in the know, are there any questions on this topic I'm not asking, but I should be asking?
Note: edited for formatting.
In my experience, the beneficial effects of nicotine are weak and short-lived. They appeared not to stack with caffeine and I prefer coffee to gum. I didn't experience any dependency effects, but neither have I from other drugs, so that may not be a reliable indicator. My friends look at me strange when I talk about nootropics, so none to compare with
I've used 1-2mg of nicotine (via gum) a few of times a month for a couple years. I previously used it a few times a week for a few months before getting a methylphenidate prescription for ADD. There hasn't been any noticeable dependency, but I haven't had that with other drugs either.
Using it, I feel more focused and more confident, in contrast to caffeine which tends to just leaves me jittery and methyphenidate which is better for focus but doesn't have the slight positive emotion boost. Delivered via gum, the half-life is short (an hour at most). That's not great for a day-to-day stimulant, but it's useful when I need something at 6pm and methylphenidate would interfere with my sleep. The primary downside is occasional nausea. Now I'm wondering if patches would be longer-lasting and less nausea-inducing.
Gwern noted in his analysis of nicotine that to overcome dependency effects, the user could cycle between different nootropics they use. For example, a three day cycle of nicotine, then caffeine, then modafanil, then repeat and start over with nicotine.
Over the course of several months, I could trial different methods of consuming nicotine, i.e., patches, e-cigarettes, and gum. I would space each of these trials out over the course of several months because I wouldn't want each of the trials to be spaced too close together, and I wouldn't want to mess with my body by consuming too much nicotine anyway. As a protection against my subjective experience being useless, I would read more of Gwern's reviews on nootropics, and perhaps consult online nootropics communities on their methods for noting how they feel. Their could be trials I could run, or ways of taking notes, which would allow me to make the information gleaned in that regard more useful.
About a year ago, after reading the same Gwern piece, I bought a pack of 20 Nicorette 4mg nicotine mints. It was my intention to use them to try and hack my internal reward system to find a certain activity (solo jazz dance classes) intrinsically enjoyable. I've now achieved this, but I can't attest to the role of nicotine in the process, and in all likelihood I probably just learned to like solo jazz classes. I've occasionally used them as a generic stimulant. Here are some observations and comments that may be of use to you:
Of the original pack of 20, I still have about half a dozen left after nearly a year. A regular packet of Mentos wouldn't last a week.
They taste kind of foul. Not horrible, but if I weren't sucking one with an objective in mind, I'd probably spit it out.
I, personally, have a very poor ability to scrutinise my internal states. If I'm drunk, I don't feel drunk, but instead have to infer my state through my behaviour. 4mg of nicotine for a non-smoker is apparently quite a heavy dose, but I don't feel a "buzz" or any other subjective "come-on" experience.
I'm reasonably sure nicotine gives me a short-term boost to focus/attention (observed in dance classes and study sessions), but I can't rule out a placebo effect.
Probably so you don't develop an attachment to the nicotine gum. Looks like it works!
I believe I have a better ability to scrutinize my internal states. Like, when consuming alcohol, marijuana, or caffeine, more often than not I notice my subjective experience changing, i.e., I feel drunk/high/whatever. However, this might only be the case when I've taken greater, or stronger, doses of a given drug. If that is the case, it wouldn't be helpful. Perhaps if I have a history of needing to consume more of a drug for me to notice its affects, that could be net harmful, because I could be tempted to consume enough nicotine for me to notice its affects. By the time I've done that, it could already be that I've consumed too much. I imagine that would be bad for me because I might be more likely to develop, or experience, dependency effects, nausea, and other ill side effects of nicotine use, at higher doses.
I'll keep that in mind if I elect to trial the use of some form of nicotine.
If you look at the relevant meta-analyses, the effect size estimates are quite modest, so much that most of nicotine's cognitive benefits won't be detectable by introspection. Given the lack of readily observable benefits and given the foul taste of the gum/lozenges, it can be challenging to maintain the habit. All this is in accord with my experience. I would expect that e-cigarettes are superior in this respect.
Small to medium-sized, yes (I assume you're referring to Heishman et al 2010). But modest compared to what? There aren't too many cheap legal stimulants with clean side-effect profiles we can use.
Oh, I agree. I meant modest compared to effects I expect to be detectable by casual introspection.
I'm closer to personally experimenting with nicotine, so I'd like to gloss over these meta-analyses. I can access academic, and medical, journals myself, but I don't know which ones to search in. In which journal can I find this citation? (please and thanks).
I've only read the one gwern mentions: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20414766
Thanks.
I use an e-cigarette sometimes while working. I do not smoke. I feel like it does give a small lift at first, though re-dosing effects seem less pronounced than the first of the day. If I puff on it for too long, I feel like it actually gives a slight depressant effect. Overall, its pleasant and tastes good. I think most of the benefit comes from the fact that you're just a little bit "high" while working which makes it more enjoyable. They are definitely addicting.
Thanks for replying, TylerJay. Did you notice they became addictive immediately, or after a graduated period of use? If the latter, what was the frequency, or quantity, of your daily consumption of e-cigarettes? Is there anyway you believe one might be able to avoid addiction to e-cigarettes?
Over time. It's really subtle. You first notice it if you go away for a few days and don't bring it and you're like "Damn, I wish I brought my ecig." I've had it for a year and I routinely go a week without using it and I don't have any withdrawals. I just catch myself thinking about it sometimes.
Yeah, don't smoke em.
But in all seriousness (and since abstinence is boring and usually ineffective), your best bet is to get the low nicotine versions and only use it a little bit. If you feel like you took a puff or two and didn't get additionally stimulated, then stop smoking it and wait until the next day or wait a few hours. Take 1-2 week long breaks every once in a while as a status check and take note of the quiet little voice in your head. How many times does it bring up the ecig? If you find yourself needing more to feel the same buzz (or you just start going through them a lot faster), that's a sign to stop and take a nice long break. This is pretty generic good advice for any addictive substances and I've used it effectively with many.
I would recommend gum or lozenge instead of ecigarrete... the immediate effect of the ecigarette would seem to make addiction much more likely.
I have never smoked, but I use nicotine gum occasionally. It feels like it gives me a slight "edge" when I need to concentrate better, and I definitely feel more of an effect than with typical caffeine doses (which I don't consume regularly either). I tend to chew the gums longer than regular chewing gums, but I feel no particular desire for them when, and actually tend to forget I have them.