hairyfigment comments on How to Convince Me That 2 + 2 = 3 - Less Wrong

52 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 27 September 2007 11:00PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (390)

Sort By: Old

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: ec429 14 September 2011 04:48:15AM *  14 points [-]

For a while this confused me, because I incorrectly identified what part of Eliezer's argument I thought was wrong.

Suppose I were to make all those observations suggesting that combining two objects with two objects produced three objects. I would not conclude that 2+2=3, rather I would conclude that objects were not modelled by Peano Arithmetic. (This much has been said by other commenters). But then I only 'know' Peano Arithmetic through the (physical) operation of my own brain.

Here's how to convince me that 2+2=3. Suppose I look at the proof from (peano axioms) to (2+2=4), and suddenly notice that an inference has been made that doesn't follow from the inference rules (say, I notice that the proof says a + (b⁺) = (a+b)⁺ and I know full well that the correct rule is (a⁺)+(b⁺)=(a+b)⁺). I correct this 'error' and follow through to the end of the proof, and conclude the result 2+2=3. What do I do? I consider that this observation is more likely if 2+2=3 than if 2+2=4, and so I update on that. It's still more likely that 2+2=4, because it's more likely that I've made an error this time than that everyone who's analysed that proof before has made an error (or rather, that I have not heard of anyone else spotting this error). But clearly there is something to update on, so my prior probability that 2+2=3 is not zero. However, I also maintain that if in fact the proof of 2+2=4 is correct, then it remains correct whether or not I am convinced of it, whether or not I exist, and even whether or not physical reality exists. So it is a priori true, but my knowledge of it is not a priori knowledge (because the latter does not exist).

I think this is what Eliezer was trying to say with "Unconditional facts are not the same as unconditional beliefs.", but this seems to be glossed over and almost lost within the confusion about earplugs. The article's failure to distinguish between a mathematical theory and a mathematical model (map and territory, possibly?) came very close to obscuring the actual point. This article does not explain how to convince Eliezer that 2+2=3, it explains how to convince Eliezer that PA does not model earplugs - and since the latter is not an a priori truth, it is much less interesting that knowledge of it is not a priori either.

Comment author: hairyfigment 15 September 2011 06:36:57PM 10 points [-]

You're over-thinking this. Take a look at this real-world example of a "neurological fault":

Now I knew where I was. Soon I would come to interchange 27 with its two ramps, A and B. B led away from my destination and A directly into it. It had always struck me as strange that one reached 27B before 27A. I recalled drawing that on a map to give to someone who was going to visit me. My breathing has returned to normal and my panic had disappeared. I come up to the first sign for the interchange.

"27A"

I could hardly breathe. That was not possible. 27A was after 27B. I knew that. I considered for a moment the possibility that on the previous night, shortly after I drove on this very highway, construction workers had descended en masse on the interchanges and somehow moved them. That seemed far more possible than that my clear (and detailed) memory could be so wrong. 27A looked exactly as I remembered, except that now I could see 27B clearly in the distance and in the past I had to turn my head to see it.

I exited on the ramp that I knew wasn’t there twenty-four hours previously to find myself on a well-remembered road. And soon I was home.

Now imagine that happening on a massive scale. Say that right after reading this comment you experience evidence, like that which the OP describes, going against your memories of what happens when you put one pair of objects next to another pair. (This includes "mental confirmation that XXX - XX = XX", though not a formal proof in PA.) Would that make you doubt your memories of what PA says? Would you want to check the proof that it says (2+2=4) in case your current memory is lying about that as well?