Lumifer comments on Rational Evangelism - Less Wrong

9 Post author: aarongertler 26 February 2014 06:00AM

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Comment author: Lumifer 26 February 2014 06:27:50PM 3 points [-]

2 things come to my mind as examples

Notably, both are fiction.

So, what would a rational story be about? Health and Happiness sound like good bets. It should incorporate elements described by religious mysticism, stuff like Love, Joy, Strength, Peace, Trust, etc. It should position itself to the current effort to find common ground... like the Charter for Compassion. It should be about a long journey of discovering the power of love.

<rolls eyes> And what exactly would make that story "rational"? Pray to St.Bayes to discover the power of love? X-0

Comment author: terasinube 02 March 2014 05:34:31PM 0 points [-]

I think a fidelity to the truth will make the story rational. I would love a story without slips into magikal thinking.

Comment author: Lumifer 03 March 2014 04:25:42PM *  1 point [-]

I think a fidelity to the truth will make the story rational.

What do you call "the truth" in the context of a fictional story?

Comment author: terasinube 03 March 2014 04:45:22PM -1 points [-]

The truth I was referring in the previous comment is Scientific understanding.

Also, when I said story I did not meant a work of fiction but more like an work of vision.

Something like a reimagining of what life could be for the human race and the commitment to implement that vision as expressed by the people telling the story and living the story.

Comment author: Lumifer 03 March 2014 05:12:30PM 0 points [-]

The truth I was referring in the previous comment is Scientific understanding.

I don't understand what these words mean to you.

Something like a reimagining of what life could be for the human race and the commitment to implement that vision as expressed by the people telling the story and living the story.

I still don't understand. What does "fidelity to the truth" mean in the context of ideology? Science doesn't tell you what your values should be.

Comment author: savageorange 27 February 2014 01:04:18AM *  0 points [-]

I find I can always count on you to make pointlessly snarky comments.

I would prefer to be more specific, and say 'understanding, acceptance, confidence, control, and love' (with clear definitions for each, probably similar to the ones in the GROW Blue Book). Not all of these things can be used to make clever, snappy remarks to wow outsiders, but they are all necessary for a satisfying life, and therefore must be addressed effectively by any sound philosophy of life. The parent comment was only vague, not wrong.

Comment author: Lumifer 27 February 2014 02:25:13AM 3 points [-]

I find I can always count on you to make pointlessly snarky comments.

One of the services I provide :-P

'understanding, acceptance, confidence, control, and love'

I don't see how understanding, acceptance, and love follow from rationality. Confidence and control are more reasonable.

must be addressed effectively by any sound philosophy of life.

Are you saying that rationalism is a "philosophy of life", even leaving the soundness aside for a minute?

The parent comment was only vague, not wrong.

The parent comment said: "You need a good story. That's all. A good story."

That's not vague. That's wrong.

Comment author: savageorange 27 February 2014 03:40:39AM *  -2 points [-]

I don't see how understanding, acceptance, and love follow from rationality.

They do not follow from it, they are necessary to it.

  • You need to relate well to yourself and others (love) in order to actually accomplish anything worthwhile without then turning around and sabotaging it.
  • If you discover something, you need to accept what is actually going on in order to come to understand it, and understand it in order to apply it.

Are you saying that rationalism is a "philosophy of life", even leaving the soundness aside for a minute?

No. But a story that is trying to have broad appeal needs these things, whether it's a story about rationality or about watching paint dry. A story conveys a sense of life.

The parent comment said: "You need a good story. That's all. A good story."

That's not vague. That's wrong.

That depends on what you think 'good' is supposed to imply there. If 'convincing' is the intended connotation, then yeah, wrong. If 'consistent' is the intended connotation, that is not obviously wrong, People need stories to help them get stuff done, even though stories are overall pretty terrible.

Science, for example, has methods, but overall science is a story about how to get accurate data and interpret it accurately in spite of our human failings. The way that the elements of that story were obtained does not make it any less of a story. History itself is a story, no matter how accurate you get, it remains a narrative rather than a fact. Reality exists, but all descriptions of it are stories; there are no facts found in stories; Facts are made of reality, not of words.

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