TheOtherDave comments on Avoiding Your Belief's Real Weak Points - Less Wrong

49 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 05 October 2007 01:59AM

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Comment author: HungryTurtle 21 April 2012 12:37:55AM 0 points [-]

That depends, of course, on what the society values. If I value oppressing people, making me more efficient just lets me oppress people more efficiently. If I value war, making me more efficient means I conduct war more efficiently.

So does rationality determine what a person or group values, or is it merely a tool to be used towards subjective values?

Sure. But that scenario implies that wanting to kill ourselves is the goal we're striving for, and I consider that unlikely enough to not be worth worrying about much.

My scenario does not assume that all of humanity views themselves as one in-group. Whereas what you are saying assumes that it does. Killing ourselves and killing them are two very different things. I don't think many groups have the goal of killing themselves, but do you not think that the eradication of competing out groups could be seen as increasing in-group survival?

Almost entirely orthogonal.

You are going to have to explain what you mean here.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 21 April 2012 12:52:33AM 0 points [-]

So does rationality determine what a person or group values, or is it merely a tool to be used towards subjective values?

Dunno about "merely", but yeah, the thing LW refers to by "rationality" is a tool that can be used to promote any values.

My scenario does not assume that all of humanity views themselves as one in-group. Whereas what you are saying assumes that it does.

I don't think it assumes that, actually. You mentioned "a world of majorly rational people [..] killing us all faster." I don't see how a world of people who are better at achieving what they value results in all of us being killed faster, unless people value killing all of us.

If what I value is killing you and surviving myself, and you value the same, but we end up taking steps that result in both of us dying, it would appear we have failed to take steps that optimize for our goals. Perhaps if we were better at optimizing for our goals, we would have taken different steps.

do you not think that the eradication of competing out groups could be seen as increasing in-group survival?

Sure.

Almost entirely orthogonal. You are going to have to explain what you mean here.

I mean that whether humanity is digitized has almost nothing to do with the perceived end goal.

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