= 27d567bc2d48d9f40e9ccc20ea370b15)
Dentin comments on What legal ways do people make a profit that produce the largest net loss in utility? - Less Wrong
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
= 783df68a0f980790206b9ea87794c5b6)
Loading…= b715d02e85f7b3b4ae65ca3d3e450868)
Subscribe to RSS Feed
Powered by Reddit
= f037147d6e6c911a85753b9abdedda8d)
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (85)
Why? Do animals feel less pain?
I would expect a being with fewer neurons to feel less pain, in the same way that a being with the same number of neurons that's running the relevant operation on them for a shorter period of time (i.e. not in pain as long) would feel less pain. That's not enough to make factory farming worth it.
Why three? In order to explain it, I only need to give one alternative with much higher net utility.
There are two obvious alternatives. Not eating meat and raising the animals humanely.
Not eating meat has negative net value to me. Raising the animals humanely increases cost, and depending on 'how humanely' we're talking about, can easily become net negative value to me.
Factory farms have a large net loss in utility due to the suffering they cause animals. If you do not value animals, then it's not surprising that they wouldn't cause a large loss in your utility function. However, from the perspective of wanting to prevent harm in all sentient beings, they cause a large negative utility.
Let's take two ecosystems. One is rich and diverse, full of creatures mostly eating each other. Another is poor and sparse, hardly any creatures live there.
Can you gain utility by converting the first ecosystem into the second one?
Yes. If the lives in the first ecosystem involve more suffering than pleasure, then the second almost certainly has more utility.
Considering that dying is a once-in-a-lifetime event, I think it's a bigger issue how they live than how they die.
So, desertification is a good thing then, I guess? Actually, is there anything in that line of reasoning that doesn't argue for converting all wild nature into sterile empty spaces?
If wild animals suffer more than they feel pleasure, I don't see why it would be better for them to live. I don't actually know whether or not their lives are worth living, but it doesn't seem all that unlikely that they're not.
Do you think all life is worth living regardless of how terrible it is? Do you predict some long-term benefit of the wild that will make the horrendous amounts of suffering involved all worthwhile?
Do you feel the same way about humans, too?
Yes. I am in favor of euthanasia.
From what I understand, involuntary euthanasia, right?
Any ecosystems which do not involve more suffering than pleasure shouldn't be exterminated, by that line of reasoning.
That's a question with an answer. Do wild animals suffer so much their lives aren't worth living? Then yes. My gut feeling is that it isn't the case, however, or it varies a lot from specie to specie - some might inherently suffer more than others by being kept in a naturally high state of stress, etc.
To assert that animals experience qualia is hardly an uncontroversial claim.