NancyLebovitz comments on Rationality Quotes May 2014 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: elharo 01 May 2014 09:45AM

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Comment author: B_For_Bandana 03 May 2014 02:28:58AM *  26 points [-]

One afternoon a student said "Roshi, I don't really understand what's going on. I mean, we sit in zazen and we gassho to each other and everything, and Felicia got enlightened when the bottom fell out of her water-bucket, and Todd got enlightened when you popped him one with your staff, and people work on koans and get enlightened, but I've been doing this for two years now, and the koans don't make any sense, and I don't feel enlightened at all! Can you just tell me what's going on?"

"Well you see," Roshi replied, "for most people, and especially for most educated people like you and I, what we perceive and experience is heavily mediated, through language and concepts that are deeply ingrained in our ways of thinking and feeling. Our objective here is to induce in ourselves and in each other a psychological state that involves the unmediated experience of the world, because we believe that that state has certain desirable properties. It's impossible in general to reach that state through any particular form or method, since forms and methods are themselves examples of the mediators that we are trying to avoid. So we employ a variety of ad hoc means, some linguistic like koans and some non-linguistic like zazen, in hopes that for any given student one or more of our methods will, in whatever way, engender the condition of non-mediated experience that is our goal. And since even thinking in terms of mediators and goals tends to reinforce our undesirable dependency on concepts, we actively discourage exactly this kind of analytical discourse."

And the student was enlightened.

Comment author: satt 04 May 2014 11:50:31AM 2 points [-]

I don't think there's such a thing as "unmediated experience of the world".

(I like the quotation a lot for giving a plausible, lucid reason why Zen might spurn the usual sort of analytical discourse. But it's so clear an explanation of an idea that I think it's revealed a basic problem with the idea, namely that it points towards a non-existent goal.)

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 04 May 2014 01:33:56PM 13 points [-]

There is such a thing as a less mediated experience of the world.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 09 May 2014 06:30:33AM 1 point [-]

Can you give some examples of more and less mediated experiences?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 09 May 2014 03:08:14PM 3 points [-]

That's an interesting question-- "mediated" should probably be modified by "of what?" and "by what?".

It's definitely possible for perceptions to become less mediated by focusing on small details so that prototypes aren't dominant. It's possible to become a lot more perceptive about color, and Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain is about seeing angles, lengths, shading, curves, etc. rather than objects and thus being able to draw accurately.

If you get some distance on your emotions through meditation and/or CBT, is your experience of your emotions less mediated? More mediated? Wrong questions? I think meditators assume that the calm you achieve is already there-- you just weren't noticing it until you meditated enough, so your emotions are more mediated and your calm is less mediated, but now that I've put it into words, I'm not sure what you would use for evidence that the calm was always there rather than created by meditation.

Thank you for the evidence that it's possible to get 12 karma points for something that doesn't exactly make sense.

Comment author: Armok_GoB 09 May 2014 02:35:06PM 0 points [-]

Reasoning inductively rather than deductively, over uncompressed data rather than summaries.

Mediated: "The numbers between 3 and 7" Unmediated: "||| |||| ||||| |||||| |||||||"