Thanks for writing this!
I remain unconvinced. I agree with most of your points, and I think most of my disagreement stems from modeling my mind, the world, and/or 'dark techniques' in a different way than you do. I'd be happy to get together and try to converge sometime.
I do have one direct disagreement with the text, which is somewhat indicative of my more general disagreements.
Your instrumental rationality will always be limited by your epistemic rationality.
In my experience, many rationalists are motivation-limited, not accuracy-limited. I have met many people who are smarter than I am, who think faster than I do, who are better epistemic rationalists than I am---and who suffer greatly from akrasia or other stamina issues.
I seem to be quite good at achieving my goals. I am by no means convinced that this is due to some excess of willpower: my successes could alternatively be attributed to chance, genetics, self-delusion, or other factors. Even conditioned upon the assumption that my ability to avoid akrasia is a large part of my success, I am not convinced that my motivational techniques are the source of this ability.
However, I do see many "light-side" epistemic r...
I think the point Brienne made is that seemingly small tradeoffs of epistemic accuracy for instrumental power actually cost much more than you might expect. You can't pay a little epistemic accuracy for a lot of instrumental power, because epistemic rationality requires that you leave yourself no outs. If you sanction even one tiny exception, you lose the benefits of purity that you didn't even know were available.
Keep in mind here that I'm steelmanning someone else's argument, perhaps improperly. I don't want to put words in anyone else's mouth. That said, I used the term 'purity' in loose analogy to a 'pure' programming language, wherein one exception is sufficient to remove much of the possible gains.
Continuing the steelmanning, however, I'd say that while no human can achieve epistemic perfection, there's a large class of epistemic failures that you only recognize if you're striving for perfection. Striving for purity, not purity itself, is what gets you the gains.
So8ers, you're completely accurate in your interpretation of my argument. I'm going to read some more of your previous posts before responding much to your first comment here.
You'd better remove Scott's real last name from your post before search engines index it, because he doesn't want it to be easy to find his blog given his full name.
Would an apt summary be "Expertly used Dark Side techniques have a high local maximum of instrumental rationality, but there is a region of higher instrumental rationality that involves epistemic rationality techniques that are incompatible with Dark Side techniques"?
Being wrong about something may harm you in the long term. Being right when others are wrong can get you killed right now.
Not sure how exactly this relates to the article (maybe it doesn't), but I feel weird when this obvious part is missing from a debate about instrumental rationality. As if there is just me and the universe, and if I have the correct beliefs, the universe will reward me, and if I have incorrect beliefs, the universe will punish me, on average. Therefore, let's praise the universe and let's have correct beliefs! I agree that if I were a Robinson on an empty island, trying to have correct beliefs would probably be the best way. But most people are not in this situation.
It is a great privilege to live in the time and space when having the right beliefs doesn't get you killed immediately. It probably contributes to our epistemic rationality more than anything else. And I enjoy it, a lot! But it doesn't mean that the social punishments are gone completely. Even in the same country, different people live in different situations, so probably an important strategic move in becoming more rational is to navigate yourself in situations where the punishment for having correc...
Lying constantly about what you believe is all well and good if you have Professor Quirrell-like lying skills and your conscience doesn't bother you if you lie to protect yourself from others' hostility to your views. I myself lie effortlessly, and felt not a shred of guilt when, say, I would hide my atheism to protect myself from the hostility of my very anti-anti-religious father (he's not a believer himself, he's just hostile to atheism for reasons which elude me).
Other people, however, are not so lucky. Some people are obliged to publicly profess belief of some sort or face serious reprisals, and also feel terrible when they lie. Defiance may not be feasible, so they must either use Dark Side Epistemology to convince themselves of what others demand they be convinced, or else be cursed with the retching pain of a guilty conscience.
If you've never found yourself in such a situation, lucky you. But realize that you have it easy.
A man was telling one of his friends the secret of his contented married life: "My wife makes all the small decisions," he explained, "and I make all the big ones, so we never interfere in each other's business and never get annoyed with each other. We have no complaints and no arguments." "That sounds reasonable," answered his friend sympathetically. "And what sort of decisions does your wife make?" "Well," answered the man, "she decides what jobs I apply for, what sort of house we live in, what furniture we have, where we go for our holidays, and things like that." His friend was surprised. "Oh?" he said. "And what do you consider important decisions then?" "Well," answered the man, "I decide who should be Prime Minister, whether we should increase our help to poor countries, what we should do about the atom bomb, and things like that."
I think you've identified a special case of a more general problem, which is that true beliefs do not have equal value, and that their values can vary wildly with your circumstances. To borrow blacktrance's example: if you're living in 6th-century Rome then it's useful to know that Jews aren't inherently evil...but it's more useful to know what happens to people who say so. And if you don't know how to profess that Jews are inherently evil without being corrupted by that lie, then it's more important to learn that than it is to believe true things about Jews.
This discipline, of predicting the value of information before you've learned it, is very difficult. For me, it's the most difficult thing. But it's also the center of the art; if it weren't, we could all level up endlessly by browsing Wikipedia.
As if there is just me and the universe, and if I have the correct beliefs, the universe will reward me, and if I have incorrect beliefs, the universe will punish me, on average. Therefore, let's praise the universe and let's have correct beliefs!
It is just you and the universe. "Other people" are a part of the universe.
(I actually kind of agree with you, though - the larger point is that your beliefs can impact outcomes directly rather than only via predictions. A non-sentient example of this would be Placebo effects. This seems not to have been included in the OP's discussion.)
Ultimately, I think beliefs are inputs for predictions
As Robin Hanson has pointed out, beliefs are also a way of showing something about oneself. Tribal membership, moral superiority, etc. A good Cimmerian believes in Crom, the grim gloomy unforgiving god.
Often, when we attempt to accept contradictory statements as correct, it causes cognitive dissonance--that nagging, itchy feeling in your brain that won't leave you alone until you admit that something is wrong.
My impression is that most people never admit that their beliefs are contradictory, instead they either lash out at whoever is bringing the contradictions to the forefront of their mind or start ignoring him.
But I was wrong. And that mattered. Having accurate beliefs is a ridiculously convergent incentive. Every utility function that involves interaction with the territory--interaction of just about any kind!--benefits from a sound map.
Can you give three examples of improvements in your life since your epiphany?
Warren Buffet compared to Bill Gates? You can't deny that one of the two is easier to laugh at.
Let's throw in another non-geek/geek pair: Justin Bieber and Mark Zuckerberg.
You can't deny that one of the two is easier to laugh at.
Against Against Against Doublethink
What, only 3 levels-deep meta? This is like approximating e^x with only 1+x+x^2/2+x^3/6. Back to the drawing board.
Thoughts on this:
Obviously it's possible to want multiple things and believe multiple things. My mind, at least, is best approximately as a society of sub-agents than as a single unified self. I think "System 1 vs System 2" is already too much of an approximation–my System 1 definitely isn't unified, and even my System 2 doesn't agree on a single set of beliefs.
Can you simultaneously want sex and not want it?
Yes, and even large amounts of luminosity haven't made this divide go away. I used to not want sex because it was unpleasant, but want...
Well, I for one am confused much of the time, and whenever I encounter someone who ostensibly isn't, I get nervous. Believing falsehoods isn't just the domain of dark artisans, it comes courtesy of having a brain. My belief that "most of my beliefs must have large error bounds" probably has among my lowest error bounds; I'm surest about being unsure.
I do wonder if convincing oneself of having given up deluding oneself isn't the greatest dark side achievement of all -- after all, how would you know it's not? Maybe you got tricked by your System 0....
When you know that some of your beliefs are false, and you know that leaving them be is instrumentally rational, you do not develop the automatic reflex of interrogating every suspicion of confusion.
Noticing confusion is about noticing your feelings and reacting towards them. Acknowledging your feelings and thinking about their causes is useful whether the feeling is confusion, anger or fear.
It's not that hard to accidentally believe a contradiction, since we're not logically omniscient and "consistency checking" is a computationally intractable problem except in simple cases. Proving that an arbitrary sentence of propositional logic isn't a contradiction is an NP-complete problem, and human beliefs are more complicated than statements in propositional logic.
cache out -> cash out.
Not that I want to nitpick spelling, but "cached thoughts" and "cashing out your beliefs" are both used for different things.
So I predict that if I intervene and stop the ticking (in non-ridiculous ways), my car will keep working.
Nitpick: "ridiculous" is relative to your goals here. A slightly better wording might be "fix the root cause of the ticking".
So, it seems like there's been up upswing in interest regarding meditation around here recently. I mention this because in this article Brienne advocates for several mental habits such as catching yourself having millisecond-scale mental events and arresting or reversing them, or being able to dispassionately watch herself being uncomfortable and then act on that discomfort in an effectively dissociated fashion. I have done exactly the same thing where I've suggested in a post that the solution to somebody's problem was to simply execute a highly specifi...
This reminds me of the studies that found that "Releasing stress" via punching pillows and screaming only trained you to respond to stressful situations in violent ways, rather than actually having beneficial effects. Training is a question of learning to unconsciously do a conscious activity and training yourself in dark side methods is making unconscious your reliance/use of falsities.
Finally got around to reading this completely. Great exposition.
[T]oward the beginning of my rationality training, I went through a long period of being so enamored with a-veridical instrumental techniques [...] that I double-thought myself into believing accuracy was not so great. But I was wrong. And that mattered. Having accurate beliefs is a ridiculously convergent incentive.
It reminds me of Wittgensteins ladder: You seemed to have stepped up the ladder thru practical rationality and dark arts and by no longer need them explicitly. You have unconsc...
Would you advocate never using Dark Side techniques, or are these techniques reasonable in some situations?, even though, once you become a real master at rationality, they have to be left behind.
(Before I studied the Dark Arts, truth was truth and lies were lies. While I studied the Dark Arts, truth was not truth and lies were not lies. After I studied the Dark Arts, truth was truth and lies were lies.)
You'd better remove Scott's real last name from your post before search engines index it, because he doesn't want it to be easy to find his blog given his full name.
In many contexts the law of the excluded middle can certainly be brought to bear, but I would argue that reasoning about double think about driving ability is not one of them. A driver who is realistically pessimistic about their driving will drive less confidently, more hesitantly, more constantly vigilantly, and be a hazard to other drivers' abilities to model what is going on. The same is also true of the irrationally over-optimistic drivers, but modelling what a driver who seems to think they know what they are doing is more straightforward. So the opt...
I just want to say that the title of this post is fantastic, and in a deep sort of mathy way, beautiful. It's probably usually not possible, but I love it when an appropriate title - especially a nice not-too-long one - manages to contain, by itself, so much intellectual interest. Even just seeing that title listed somewhere could plant an important seed in someone's mind.
It is pretty much a necessity that humans will believe contradictory things, if only because consistency checking each new belief with each of your current beliefs is impossibly difficult. Cognitive dissonance won't occur if the contradiction is so obscure that you haven't noticed it, or perhaps wouldn't even understand exactly how it contradicts a set of 136 other beliefs even if it was explained to you. Even if you could check for contradictions, your values change drastically from one hour to the next (how much you value food, water, company, solitude, ...
Belief is for many things, including signaling.
Instrumentlal rationality and epistemic rationality aren’t the same. Epistemic rationality seeks to maxmise knowledge, truth and consistency. Instrumental rationality seeks to maximise efficiemcy, gain and personal utility.One area they come apart is signalling, the implicit and explicit ways we tell others what kind of person we are. The instrumentally rational way is to signal is to maximise your utility by sending out agreeable signals to whichever individual or group youhappen to need something from. Th...
Followup to: Against Doublethink (sequence), Dark Arts of Rationality, Your Strength as a Rationalist
Doublethink
Can you simultaneously want sex and not want it? Can you believe in God and not believe in Him at the same time? Can you be fearless while frightened?
To be fair to Plato, this was meant not as an assertion that such contradictions are impossible, but as an argument that the soul has multiple parts. It seems we can, in fact, want something while also not wanting it. This is awfully strange, and it led Plato to conclude the soul must have multiple parts, for surely no one part could contain both sides of the contradiction.
Often, when we attempt to accept contradictory statements as correct, it causes cognitive dissonance--that nagging, itchy feeling in your brain that won't leave you alone until you admit that something is wrong. Like when you try to convince yourself that staying up just a little longer playing 2048 won't have adverse effects on the presentation you're giving tomorrow, when you know full well that's exactly what's going to happen.
But it may be that cognitive dissonance is the exception in the face of contradictions, rather than the rule. How would you know? If it doesn't cause any emotional friction, the two propositions will just sit quietly together in your brain, never mentioning that it's logically impossible for both of them to be true. When we accept a contradiction wholesale without cognitive dissonance, it's what Orwell called "doublethink".
When you're a mere mortal trying to get by in a complex universe, doublethink may be adaptive. If you want to be completely free of contradictory beliefs without spending your whole life alone in a cave, you'll likely waste a lot of your precious time working through conundrums, which will often produce even more conundrums.
Suppose I believe that my husband is faithful, and I also believe that the unfamiliar perfume on his collar indicates he's sleeping with other women without my permission. I could let that pesky little contradiction turn into an extended investigation that may ultimately ruin my marriage. Or I could get on with my day and leave my marriage intact.
It's better to just leave those kinds of thoughts alone, isn't it? It probably makes for a happier life.
Against Doublethink
Suppose you believe that driving is dangerous, and also that, while you are driving, you're completely safe. As established in Doublethink, there may be some benefits to letting that mental configuration be.
There are also some life-shattering downsides. One of the things you believe is false, you see, by the law of the excluded middle. In point of fact, it's the one that goes "I'm completely safe while driving". Believing false things has consequences.
What are beliefs for? Please pause for ten seconds and come up with your own answer.
Ultimately, I think beliefs are inputs for predictions. We're basically very complicated simulators that try to guess which actions will cause desired outcomes, like survival or reproduction or chocolate. We input beliefs about how the world behaves, make inferences from them to which experiences we should anticipate given various changes we might make to the world, and output behaviors that get us what we want, provided our simulations are good enough.
My car is making a mysterious ticking sound. I have many beliefs about cars, and one of them is that if my car makes noises it shouldn't, it will probably stop working eventually, and possibly explode. I can use this input to simulate the future. Since I've observed my car making a noise it shouldn't, I predict that my car will stop working. I also believe that there is something causing the ticking. So I predict that if I intervene and stop the ticking (in non-ridiculous ways), my car will keep working. My belief has thus led to the action of researching the ticking noise, planning some simple tests, and will probably lead to cleaning the sticky lifters.
If it's true that solving the ticking noise will keep my car running, then my beliefs will cash out in correctly anticipated experiences, and my actions will cause desired outcomes. If it's false, perhaps because the ticking can be solved without addressing a larger underlying problem, then the experiences I anticipate will not occur, and my actions may lead to my car exploding.
Doublethink guarantees that you believe falsehoods. Some of the time you'll call upon the true belief ("driving is dangerous"), anticipate future experiences accurately, and get the results you want from your chosen actions ("don't drive three times the speed limit at night while it's raining"). But some of the time, if you actually believe the false thing as well, you'll call upon the opposite belief, anticipate inaccurately, and choose the last action you'll ever take.
Without any principled algorithm determining which of the contradictory propositions to use as an input for the simulation at hand, you'll fail as often as you succeed. So it makes no sense to anticipate more positive outcomes from believing contradictions.
Contradictions may keep you happy as long as you never need to use them. Should you call upon them, though, to guide your actions, the debt on false beliefs will come due. You will drive too fast at night in the rain, you will crash, you will fly out of the car with no seat belt to restrain you, you will die, and it will be your fault.
Against Against Doublethink
What if Plato was pretty much right, and we sometimes believe contradictions because we're sort of not actually one single person?
It is not literally true that Systems 1 and 2 are separate individuals the way you and I are. But the idea of Systems 1 and 2 suggests to me something quite interesting with respect to the relationship between beliefs and their role in decision making, and modeling them as separate people with very different personalities seems to work pretty darn well when I test my suspicions.
If you're generous to a fault, "I should be more selfish" is probably a belief that will pay off in positive outcomes should you install it for future use. If you're selfish to a fault, the same belief will be harmful. So what if you were too generous half of the time and too selfish the other half? Well, then you would want to believe "I should be more selfish" with only the generous half, while disbelieving it with the selfish half.
Systems 1 and 2 need to hear different things. System 2 might be able to understand the reality of biases and make appropriate adjustments that would work if System 1 were on board, but System 1 isn't so great at being reasonable. And it's not System 2 that's in charge of most of your actions. If you want your beliefs to positively influence your actions (which is the point of beliefs, after all), you need to tailor your beliefs to System 1's needs.
For example: The planning fallacy is nearly ubiquitous. I know this because for the past three years or so, I've gotten everywhere five to fifteen minutes early. Almost every single person I meet with arrives five to fifteen minutes late. It is very rare for someone to be on time, and only twice in three years have I encountered the (rather awkward) circumstance of meeting with someone who also arrived early.
Before three years ago, I was also usually late, and I far underestimated how long my projects would take. I knew, abstractly and intellectually, about the planning fallacy, but that didn't stop System 1 from thinking things would go implausibly quickly. System 1's just optimistic like that. It responds to, "Dude, that is not going to work, and I have a twelve point argument supporting my position and suggesting alternative plans," with "Naaaaw, it'll be fine! We can totally make that deadline."
At some point (I don't remember when or exactly how), I gained the ability to look at the true due date, shift my System 1 beliefs to make up for the planning fallacy, and then hide my memory that I'd ever seen the original due date. I would see that my flight left at 2:30, and be surprised to discover on travel day that I was not late for my 2:00 flight, but a little early for my 2:30 one. I consistently finished projects on time, and only disasters caused me to be late for meetings. It took me about three months before I noticed the pattern and realized what must be going on.
I got a little worried I might make a mistake, such as leaving a meeting thinking the other person just wasn't going to show when the actual meeting time hadn't arrived. I did have a couple close calls along those lines. But it was easy enough to fix; in important cases, I started receiving Boomeranged notes from past-me around the time present-me expected things to start that said, "Surprise! You've still got ten minutes!"
This unquestionably improved my life. You don't realize just how inconvenient the planning fallacy is until you've left it behind. Clearly, considered in isolation, the action of believing falsely in this domain was instrumentally rational.
Doublethink, and the Dark Arts generally, applied to carefully chosen domains is a powerful tool. It's dumb to believe false things about really dangerous stuff like driving, obviously. But you don't have to doublethink indiscriminately. As long as you're careful, as long as you suspend epistemic rationality only when it's clearly beneficial to do so, employing doublethink at will is a great idea.
Instrumental rationality is what really matters. Epistemic rationality is useful, but what use is holding accurate beliefs in situations where that won't get you what you want?
Against Against Against Doublethink
There are indeed epistemically irrational actions that are instrumentally rational, and instrumental rationality is what really matters. It is pointless to believing true things if it doesn't get you what you want. This has always been very obvious to me, and it remains so.
There is a bigger picture.
Certain epistemic rationality techniques are not compatible with dark side epistemology. Most importantly, the Dark Arts do not play nicely with "notice your confusion", which is essentially your strength as a rationalist. If you use doublethink on purpose, confusion doesn't always indicate that you need to find out what false thing you believe so you can fix it. Sometimes you have to bury your confusion. There's an itsy bitsy pause where you try to predict whether it's useful to bury.
As soon as I finally decided to abandon the Dark Arts, I began to sweep out corners I'd allowed myself to neglect before. They were mainly corners I didn't know I'd neglected.
The first one I noticed was the way I responded to requests from my boyfriend. He'd mentioned before that I often seemed resentful when he made requests of me, and I'd insisted that he was wrong, that I was actually happy all the while. (Notice that in the short term, since I was probably going to do as he asked anyway, attending to the resentment would probably have made things more difficult for me.) This self-deception went on for months.
Shortly after I gave up doublethink, he made a request, and I felt a little stab of dissonance. Something I might have swept away before, because it seemed more immediately useful to bury the confusion than to notice it. But I thought (wordlessly and with my emotions), "No, look at it. This is exactly what I've decided to watch for. I have noticed confusion, and I will attend to it."
It was very upsetting at first to learn that he'd been right. I feared the implications for our relationship. But that fear didn't last, because we both knew the only problems you can solve are the ones you acknowledge, so it is a comfort to know the truth.
I was far more shaken by the realization that I really, truly was ignorant that this had been happening. Not because the consequences of this one bit of ignorance were so important, but because who knows what other epistemic curses have hidden themselves in the shadows? I realized that I had not been in control of my doublethink, that I couldn't have been.
Pinning down that one tiny little stab of dissonance took great preparation and effort, and there's no way I'd been working fast enough before. "How often," I wondered, "does this kind of thing happen?"
Very often, it turns out. I began noticing and acting on confusion several times a day, where before I'd been doing it a couple times a week. I wasn't just noticing things that I'd have ignored on purpose before; I was noticing things that would have slipped by because my reflexes slowed as I weighed the benefit of paying attention. "Ignore it" was not an available action in the face of confusion anymore, and that was a dramatic change. Because there are no disruptions, acting on confusion is becoming automatic.
I can't know for sure which bits of confusion I've noticed since the change would otherwise have slipped by unseen. But here's a plausible instance. Tonight I was having dinner with a friend I've met very recently. I was feeling s little bit tired and nervous, so I wasn't putting as much effort as usual into directing the conversation. At one point I realized we had stopped making making any progress toward my goals, since it was clear we were drifting toward small talk. In a tired and slightly nervous state, I imagine that I might have buried that bit of information and abdicated responsibility for the conversation--not by means of considering whether allowing small talk to happen was actually a good idea, but by not pouncing on the dissonance aggressively, and thereby letting it get away. Instead, I directed my attention at the feeling (without effort this time!), inquired of myself what precisely was causing it, identified the prediction that the current course of conversation was leading away from my goals, listed potential interventions, weighed their costs and benefits against my simulation of small talk, and said, "What are your terminal values?"
(I know that sounds like a lot of work, but it took at most three seconds. The hard part was building the pouncing reflex.)
When you know that some of your beliefs are false, and you know that leaving them be is instrumentally rational, you do not develop the automatic reflex of interrogating every suspicion of confusion. You might think you can do this selectively, but if you do, I strongly suspect you're wrong in exactly the way I was.
I have long been more viscerally motivated by things that are interesting or beautiful than by things that correspond to the territory. So it's not too surprising that toward the beginning of my rationality training, I went through a long period of being so enamored with a-veridical instrumental techniques--things like willful doublethink--that I double-thought myself into believing accuracy was not so great.
But I was wrong. And that mattered. Having accurate beliefs is a ridiculously convergent incentive. Every utility function that involves interaction with the territory--interaction of just about any kind!--benefits from a sound map. Even if "beauty" is a terminal value, "being viscerally motivated to increase your ability to make predictions that lead to greater beauty" increases your odds of success.
Dark side epistemology prevents total dedication to continuous improvement in epistemic rationality. Though individual dark side actions may be instrumentally rational, the patterns of thought required to allow them are not. Though instrumental rationality is ultimately the goal, your instrumental rationality will always be limited by your epistemic rationality.
That was important enough to say again: Your instrumental rationality will always be limited by your epistemic rationality.
It only takes a fraction of a second to sweep an observation into the corner. You don't have time to decide whether looking at it might prove problematic. If you take the time to protect your compartments, false beliefs you don't endorse will slide in from everywhere through those split-second cracks in your art. You must attend to your confusion the very moment you notice it. You must be relentless an unmerciful toward your own beliefs.
Excellent epistemology is not the natural state of a human brain. Rationality is hard. Without extreme dedication and advanced training, without reliable automatic reflexes of rational thought, your belief structure will be a mess. You can't have totally automatic anti-rationalization reflexes if you use doublethink as a technique of instrumental rationality.
This has been a difficult lesson for me. I have lost some benefits I'd gained from the Dark Arts. I'm late now, sometimes. And painful truths are painful, though now they are sharp and fast instead of dull and damaging.
And it is so worth it! I have much more work to do before I can move on to the next thing. But whatever the next thing is, I'll tackle it with far more predictive power than I otherwise would have--though I doubt I'd have noticed the difference.
So when I say that I'm against against against doublethink--that dark side epistemology is bad--I mean that there is more potential on the light side, not that the dark side has no redeeming features. Its fruits hang low, and they are delicious.
But the fruits of the light side are worth the climb. You'll never even know they're there if you gorge yourself in the dark forever.