roland comments on Can noise have power? - Less Wrong

9 Post author: lukeprog 23 May 2014 04:54AM

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Comment author: Vaniver 23 May 2014 08:57:14AM *  16 points [-]

I'm an expert in a neighboring field: numerical optimization. I've seen lots of evidence for Jaynes's impression that for any algorithm that uses randomness, one can find a deterministic technique (which takes thought) that accomplishes that goal better. (For example, comparing genetic algorithms, simulated annealing, and tabu search, the last has an deterministic memory mechanism that gives it the ability to do both diversification and intensification, with much more control than either of the other two.) Random methods are employed frequently because to do otherwise would require thought.

As for the debate, to me it looks like it was over terminology. To illustrate, let me label three different cases: the 'benign' case, where the environment is assumed to be dumb (i.e. maxent priors are reasonable), the 'adversary' case, where the environment is assumed to be an agent that knows your algorithm but not your private source of randomness, and the 'omega' case, where the environment is assumed to be an agent that knows your algorithm and your private source of randomness.*

Eliezer thinks the phrase 'worst case analysis' should refer to the 'omega' case. Scott thinks that the 'adversary' case is worth doing theoretical analysis on. The first is a preference that I agree with,** the second seems reasonable. I think Silas did a good job of summarizing the power that randomness does have:

Which is why I summarize Eliezer_Yudkowsky's position as: "Randomness is like poison. Yes, it can benefit you, but only if you use it on others."

*There's also a subtlety about solving the problem 'with high probability.' For a deterministic algorithm to have a chance at doing that, it needs to be the benign case- otherwise, the adversary decides that you fail if you left them any opening. For a randomized algorithm, the benign and adversary cases are equivalent.

**One of the things that Scott linked--when Monte Carlo goes wrong--is something that shows up a lot, and there's a whole industry built around generating random numbers. For any randomized algorithm, the real worst case is that you've got a PRNG that hates you, unless you've paid to get your bits from a source that's genuinely random, and if omega was the case that came to mind when people said 'worst case,' rather than adversary, this would have been more obvious. (vN got it, unsurprisingly, but it's not clear that the median CS researcher did until they noticed the explosions.)

Comment author: roland 23 May 2014 05:30:25PM 7 points [-]

Random methods are employed frequently because to do otherwise would require thought.

That means that randomness has power, it spares you the cost of thinking. Depending on the amount of thinking needed this can be quite substantial a value.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 11 June 2014 05:53:14AM 1 point [-]

That means that randomness has power, it spares you the cost of thinking.

I'd agree with that part.

Comment author: roland 11 June 2014 07:14:45PM 1 point [-]

It also offers a safeguard against errors in your thinking. If your thinking is wrong you might choose an algorithm that is bad given the evironment. Compare that to the probability of the random algo being matched by the environment.

Comment author: Vaniver 23 May 2014 06:42:24PM *  1 point [-]

That means that randomness has power, it spares you the cost of thinking.

Indeed. The grandparent is not entirely a condemnation.