Vaniver comments on Can noise have power? - Less Wrong

9 Post author: lukeprog 23 May 2014 04:54AM

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Comment author: Vaniver 23 May 2014 07:06:22PM -1 points [-]

Eliezer will be better understood if he uses the standard term in the standard way.

Agreed.

A computer scientist would not describe the "omega" case as random -- if the input is correlated with the random number source in a way that is detectable by the algorithm, they're by definition not random.

Right. But I want to repeat the objection here that we often use pseudorandomness instead of actual randomness, and then the real worst case is that we've gotten a cursed seed. Somewhat less practically, in situations where a real adversary may have access to our hardware, we may have to assume that they can read (or write to!) our RNG.

Comment author: Lumifer 23 May 2014 07:28:33PM 2 points [-]

Somewhat less practically, in situations where a real adversary may have access to our hardware, we may have to assume that they can read (or write to!) our RNG.

I think this is a practical scenario in cryptography where your threat model is state-level actors.

Comment author: V_V 23 May 2014 09:44:30PM 3 points [-]

If your adversary can read or write bits in your hardware, then what is the purpose of using cryptography?

Comment author: Khoth 23 May 2014 10:51:43PM *  3 points [-]

They may only be able to access your hardware in limited ways. For example, if a hardware "RNG" actually outputs 1,2,3,... encrypted with some key known only to the NSA, that's essentially totally undetectable. But if instead they have the hardware send out extra information over the internet, sooner or later someone will notice and the game will be up.

Comment author: V_V 25 May 2014 09:14:53AM 0 points [-]

How does the NSA synchs with your "RNG" is no information is exchanged?

But anyway, if you reasonably believe that your RNG may have been compromised, then you just don't use it.

Comment author: Nornagest 27 May 2014 08:31:09PM *  1 point [-]

They don't need to sync for it to be a serious weakness in a cryptosystem. If a system using Khoth's PRNG sends out a billion encrypted messages in its lifetime, then an attacker with the PRNG key needs less than 2^30 tries to decrypt a message sent at an unknown point in that sequence -- a large number, but more than manageable when you consider that a PRNG with a period of 2^80 would be considered weak in the crypto world.

Comment author: V_V 28 May 2014 08:52:19AM 0 points [-]

Agreed.

Comment author: Lumifer 27 May 2014 07:18:53PM 0 points [-]

If your adversary can read or write bits in your hardware, then what is the purpose of using cryptography?

Side channel attacks on hardware are not rare. For example, an adversary might have a way of measuring the power consumption of your CPU as it does RNG calculations. This is not quite the ability to "read or write bits in... hardware", but it is a viable attack to gain information about your, ahem, random numbers.

Comment author: V_V 28 May 2014 08:53:50AM 0 points [-]

Sure, but at this point they can also gain information on your keys or the data you wish to encrypt.

Comment author: Lumifer 28 May 2014 02:23:08PM 0 points [-]

Sure, but at this point they can also gain information on your keys or the data you wish to encrypt.

Not necessarily. Think wider, not only PCs use encrypted communications. Consider a router, for example, or a remote sensor.

Comment author: V_V 28 May 2014 10:43:34PM 0 points [-]

Still, if they can compromise the RNG state in the router/sensor/whatever, they could probably compromise its CPU and/or RAM.

Comment author: Lumifer 29 May 2014 04:13:29PM 0 points [-]

if they can compromise the RNG state in the router/sensor/whatever, they could probably compromise its CPU and/or RAM.

That's not self-evident to me. Passively observing power consumption is much easier than, say, getting inside a SOC in tamper-resistant packaging.