PhilGoetz comments on [meta] Policy for dealing with users suspected/guilty of mass-downvote harassment? - Less Wrong

28 Post author: Kaj_Sotala 06 June 2014 05:46AM

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Comment author: gwern 07 June 2014 04:03:41PM *  7 points [-]

Got a source?

Not really. This is my own lived experience comparing Usenet to Google Groups, Reddit, web forums, and Wikipedia, and noting the explosion of user-contribution in the shift from Overcoming Bias to LessWrong. You could easily prove Usenet is declined, but I'm not sure what research you could do to prove that the incentives were structured wrong or that features like killfiles fostered complacency & reluctance to change, other than to note how all of Usenet's replacements were strikingly different from it in similar ways.

I don't think killfiles were a significant factor myself, but I admit I'm basing that opinion just on "it sounds wrong", not any actual data.

My read is that killfiles were a major aspect of systematically bad design of Usenet which made it uncompetitive and unscalable: it increased user costs it should not have, adding friction and trivial inconveniences. Killfiles express a fundamental contempt for user time: if there are 100 readers and 1 spammer, it should not take 100 reader actions to deal with the 1 spammers, as killfiles inherently tilt matters. What would be much better is if 10 readers take an action like downvoting and spare the remaining 90. Rinse and repeat. What is better, dealing with spam/trolls while using O(1) or O(n) in reader time?

I'd have attributed the decline of Usenet and mailing lists to (1) not being on the Web (that's the biggie) (2) barrier to entry to create a new discussion forum (even alt.* had process). Mostly (1) - the wine-users list (for Wine, the Windows compatibility layer for Linux) has a two-way gateway to a web forum, and immediately the forum was available the volume was 10x.

The non-Web thing is another example of this. Yes, an uber-nerd (and buybuydandavis is exemplifying this attitude in this thread) may contemptuously look at it as an irrelevant problem: 'what sort of person can't maintain a good killfile? or figure out how to deal with NNTP servers and ports and local clients?' But it's a big deal when repeatedly incurred by millions of people who do not wish to become uber-nerds and to whom costs matter.

Of course, all of this could have been fixed. But they weren't fixed in time, and so Usenet stagnated and died.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 07 June 2014 07:15:58PM 0 points [-]

noting the explosion of user-contribution in the shift from Overcoming Bias to LessWrong

I think it has more to do with the fact that Overcoming Bias didn't allow users to post.

Comment author: gwern 07 June 2014 09:30:57PM 10 points [-]

OB allowed users to send in emails and they would be posted, which is not a high bar (lower than, say, learning a Usenet reader) and a fair number of people contributed. It's just that LW made it much easier and unsurprisingly got way more contributions. This apparently came as a big surprise to Eliezer (but not me, because of my long experience with Wikipedia; it was a bit of a Nupedia vs Wikipedia scenario to my eyes).