Eliezer_Yudkowsky comments on On Terminal Goals and Virtue Ethics - Less Wrong

67 Post author: Swimmer963 18 June 2014 04:00AM

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Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 17 June 2014 08:49:51PM 40 points [-]

"Good people are consequentialists, but virtue ethics is what works," is what I usually say when this topic comes up. That is, we all think that it is virtuous to be a consequentialist and that good, ideal rationalists would be consequentialists. However, when I evaluate different modes of thinking by the effect I expect them to have on my reasoning, and evaluate the consequences of adopting that mode of thought, I find that I expect virtue ethics to produce the best adherence rate in me, most encourage practice, and otherwise result in actually-good outcomes.

But if anyone thinks we ought not to be consequentialists on the meta-level, I say unto you that lo they have rocks in their skulls, for they shall not steer their brains unto good outcomes.

Comment author: Ruby 18 June 2014 03:23:42AM *  22 points [-]

If ever you want to refer to an elaboration and justification of this position, see R. M. Hare's two-level utilitarianism, expounded best in this paper: Ethicial Theory and Utilitarianism (see pp. 30-36).

To argue in this way is entirely to neglect the importance for moral philosophy of a study of moral education. Let us suppose that a fully informed archangelic act-utilitarian is thinking about how to bring up his children. He will obviously not bring them up to practise on every occasion on which they are confronted with a moral question the kind of arch angelic thinking that he himself is capable of [complete consequentialist reasoning]; if they are ordinary children, he knows that they will get it wrong. They will not have the time, or the information, or the self-mastery to avoid self-deception prompted by self-interest; this is the real, as opposed to the imagined, veil of ignorance which determines our moral principles.

So he will do two things. First, he will try to implant in them a set of good general principles. I advisedly use the word 'implant'; these are not rules of thumb, but principles which they will not be able to break without the greatest repugnance, and whose breach by others will arouse in them the highest indignation. These will be the principles they will use in their ordinary level-1 moral thinking, especially in situations of stress. Secondly, since he is not always going to be with them, and since they will have to educate their children, and indeed continue to educate themselves, he will teach them,as far as they are able, to do the kind of thinking that he has been doing himself. This thinking will have three functions. First of all, it will be used when the good general principles conflict in particular cases. If the principles have been well chosen, this will happen rarely; but it will happen. Secondly, there will be cases (even rarer) in which, though there is no conflict between general principles, there is something highly unusual about the case which prompts the question whether the general principles are really fitted to deal with it. But thirdly, and much the most important, this level-2 thinking will be used to select the general principles to be taught both to this and to succeeding generations. The general principles may change, and should change (because the environment changes). And note that, if the educator were not (as we have supposed him to be) arch angelic, we could not even assume that the best level-1 principles were imparted in the first place; perhaps they might be improved.

How will the selection be done? By using level-2 thinking to consider cases, both actual and hypothetical, which crucially illustrate, and help to adjudicate, disputes between rival general principles.

Comment author: kybernetikos 18 June 2014 11:12:47PM 4 points [-]

That's very interesting, but isn't the level-1 thinking closer to deontological ethics than virtue ethics, since it is based on rules rather than on the character of the moral agent?

Comment author: Ruby 19 June 2014 10:21:38AM *  3 points [-]

My understanding is that when Hare says rules or principles for level-1 he means it generically and is agnostic about what form they'd take. "Always be kind" is also a rule. For clarity, I'd substitute the word 'algorithm' for 'rules'/'principles'. Your level-2 algorithm is consequentialism, but then your level-1 algorithm is whatever happens to consequentially work best - be it inviolable deontological rules, character-based virtue ethics, or something else.

Comment author: ialdabaoth 18 June 2014 11:52:10PM 1 point [-]

level-1 thinking is actually based on habit and instinct more than rules; rules are just a way to describe habit and instinct.

Comment author: Ruby 19 June 2014 10:25:50AM 1 point [-]

Level-1 is about rules which your habit and instinct can follow, but I wouldn't say they're ways to describe it. Here we're talking about normative rules, not descriptive System 1/System 2 stuff.

Comment author: kybernetikos 19 June 2014 12:08:31AM 1 point [-]

And the Archangel has decided to take some general principles (which are rules) and implant them in the habit and instinct of the children. I suppose you could argue that the system implanted is a deontological one from the Archangels point of view, and merely instinctual behaviour from the childrens point of view. I'd still feel that calling instinctual behaviour 'virtue ethics' is a bit strange.

Comment author: ialdabaoth 19 June 2014 12:14:04AM *  0 points [-]

not quite. The initial instincts are the system-1 "presets". These can and do change with time. A particular entity's current system-1 behavior are its "habits".

Comment author: jphaas 18 June 2014 02:15:29PM 5 points [-]

Funny, I always thought it was the other way around... consequentialism is useful on the tactical level once you've decided what a "good outcome" is, but on the meta-level, trying to figure out what a good outcome is, you get into questions that you need the help of virtue ethics or something similar to puzzle through. Questions like "is it better to be alive and suffering or to be dead", or "is causing a human pain worse than causing a pig pain", or "when does it become wrong to abort a fetus", or even "is there good or bad at all?"

Comment author: CCC 30 June 2014 09:49:37AM 7 points [-]

I think that the reason may be that consequentionalism requires more computation; you need to re-calculate the consequences for each and every action.

The human brain is mainly a pattern-matching device - it uses pattern-matching to save on computation cycles. Virtues are patterns which lead to good behaviour. (Moreover, these patterns have gone through a few millenia of debugging - there are plenty of cautionary tales about people with poorly chosen virtues to serve as warnings). The human brain is not good at quickly recalcuating long-term consequences from small changes in behaviour.

Comment author: Armok_GoB 29 June 2014 06:42:57PM 3 points [-]

What actually happens is you should be consequential at even-numbered meta-levels and virtue-based on the odd numbered ones... or was it the other way around? :p

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 18 June 2014 02:56:55PM *  2 points [-]

Say I apply consequentialism to a set of end states I can reliably predict, and use something else for the set I cannot. In what sense should I be a consequentialist about the second set?

Comment author: ialdabaoth 18 June 2014 03:08:49PM *  1 point [-]

In what sense should I be a consequentialist about the second set?

In the sense that you can update on evidence until you can marginally predict end states?

I'm afraid I can't think of an example where there's a meta-level but on predictive capacity on that meta-level. Can you give an example?

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 18 June 2014 03:17:17PM 1 point [-]

I have no hope of being able to predict everything...there is always going to be a large set of end states I can't predict?

Comment author: ialdabaoth 18 June 2014 03:32:38PM 0 points [-]

Then why have ethical opinions about it at all? Again, can you please give an example of a situation where this would come up?

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 18 June 2014 03:36:11PM -1 points [-]

Lo! I have been so instructed-eth! See above.