buybuydandavis comments on False Friends and Tone Policing - Less Wrong

45 Post author: palladias 18 June 2014 06:20PM

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Comment author: fubarobfusco 18 June 2014 07:06:14PM *  26 points [-]

It seemed pretty clear to me at the time that PZ Myers was trolling — in the classic sense of doing something provocative in order to selectively make people who become outraged look stupid in public.

As ESR puts it (with his usual subcultural defensiveness):

The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it.

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/T/troll.html

Trolling isn't really an attempt to have a conversation or debate with the trolled. It's an attempt to demonstrate power, status, ability to take control of the social situation; to deflate the ego (or self-control) of the outraged victim, and so on. It is a performance for an audience, in which the victims of the trolling are a not-entirely-consenting part of the performance.

IIRC, the political context of that particular troll had a lot to do with religious folks (not particularly Catholics) insisting that non-religious folks should be obliged to express respect or deference to religious symbols. See also Qur'an-burning, "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day", and a long thread here involving British people being offended by salmon. I argued in that thread that one point of "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day" was akin to that of "Banned Books Week" — it is a show of defiance against those who would censor particular expressions.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 19 June 2014 03:58:41AM 2 points [-]

I argued in that thread that one point of "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day" was akin to that of "Banned Books Week" — it is a show of defiance against those who would censor particular expressions.

And I think that is the right response against those who would censor speech - say it again, louder.

I'm torn on the PZ Myers trolling.

On one hand, he's being a dick, but given the indecency and incivility with which believers greet unbelievers, to some extent I support his response.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 20 June 2014 12:45:19AM *  3 points [-]

I am reminded of this comic.

I don't have a principled moral judgment of PZ Myers' trolling of the Catholics, or for that matter Terry Jones' trolling of the Muslims. As far as I can tell, both are polarizing, which isn't super-great; but it's probably a good thing for discourse in general if every once in a while some showman type — a Lenny Bruce, or even an Anton LaVey — makes a point of making some sacred-cow hamburgers. (An expression I recognize rests on a misinterpretation of yet another religious group's beliefs ...)

But censorship can also lend countercultural legitimacy to ideas that are plainly false. Take the case of Wilhelm Reich, for instance. I find his social critiques of sexual repression and sex-economy to be pretty well on the mark, and had he stopped there he would have made a major contribution to radical psychotherapy, sexual liberation, and (for that matter) women's rights. But bions and orgone are not real, and cancer is not caused by a deadly form of orgone radiation. The FDA burning Reich's books, and his death in prison, made him into a martyr, rather than a plain quack, to a lot of people. And that was a long time before the Internet and the Streisand Effect.

Comment author: Omid 23 June 2014 02:23:35AM 2 points [-]

That comic is unfair. Being called a blasphemer or a ratfink is not the same as getting bashed on the head with a cross. Now the artist would argue that this is a metaphor, but in that case, wouldn't breaking a cross also be metaphorical assault?

Comment author: buybuydandavis 20 June 2014 01:17:44AM *  0 points [-]

sacred-cow hamburgers. (An expression I recognize rests on a misinterpretation of yet another religious group's beliefs ...)

Yet the expression is so catchy. Good cartoon too. I think I'l be getting mileage out of both.