satt comments on False Friends and Tone Policing - Less Wrong

45 Post author: palladias 18 June 2014 06:20PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (49)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 19 June 2014 08:38:52AM *  22 points [-]

Relevant SMBC. It illustrates my political theory that in every political conflict that seems to be between Greens and Blues, there are actually four sides of the conflict, let's call the "Nice Greens", "Nasty Greens", "Nice Blues" and "Nasty Blues". And there is more than one line of conflict.

Officially, "Nice Greens" + "Nasty Greens" and "Nice Blues" + "Nasty Blues" should be the only existing coalitions. But there is also the value of niceness, which somehow connects "Nice Greens" and "Nice Blues", and puts them into often unconscious opposition against the "Nasty Greens" and "Nasty Blues". Being nasty is a personality trait... for a "Nasty Green" it is often easier to become a "Nasty Blue" (different slogans, but generally the same behavior) than a "Nice Green" (different everyday behavior both among the enemies and the allies).

It's probably the Nasty person's greatest fear that one day the Green/Blue conflict will stop being important. Because then they would stop being "a person in service of the great Green/Blue cause, who happens to be a bit nasty, but is a great fighter on our side, so we should support them", and become merely "a nasty person who is better to be avoided".

Specifically in this case, PZ Myers seems to me analogical to those religious people who bring hate banners to funerals of gays. (As oppossed to people like Dawkins who are analogical to priests, that is, legitimate speakers of their movements' beliefs. I am making this contrast to prevent putting both of them to some general category of "militant X". There is a difference between being frank about your opinions, even if it offends those who believe otherwise, and being an asshole.)

Also, I don't like that PZ Myers is hiding behind the banner of "atheism" when doing his nasty things. Because this is not his true banner. As far as I know, he has his own set of values that he is trying to impose on all atheists: the whole "Atheism Plus" stuff. He hates the non-Plus atheists. ("Dictionary Atheists. Boy, I really do hate these guys. You’ve got a discussion going, talking about why you’re an atheist ... and some smug wanker comes along and announces that “Atheism means you lack a belief in gods. Nothing more. Quit trying to add meaning to the term.”" -- source) So I hope he will proudly wave the banner of "Atheism Plus" when doing controversial things, not to be confused with the average boring atheists. Because I certainly don't want to be confused with him.

Comment author: satt 23 June 2014 01:47:08AM 3 points [-]

It illustrates my political theory that in every political conflict that seems to be between Greens and Blues, there are actually four sides of the conflict, let's call the "Nice Greens", "Nasty Greens", "Nice Blues" and "Nasty Blues". And there is more than one line of conflict.

This gets even funner because people disagree about how to operationalize "Nice" & "Nasty". And doubleplus fun when Greens & Blues have systematic group-level disagreements about how to operationalize "Nice" & "Nasty".

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 23 June 2014 09:21:44AM *  1 point [-]

Yeah, recognizing what is "nice" and "nasty" has an instinctual component, and a cognitive component. The cognitive component depends on the model of the world, which is easily influenced by politics. For example, if someone honestly believes that gay people cause hurricanes, then opposing gay marriage is effective altruism according to their model.

The instincts are unreliable and can be manipulated. A person may be perfectly polite... and then go to their office and organize a genocide.

But I still think the instinctive part can serve as a sanity check. If someone pretends to be nice, and yet they miss many small opportunities to be nice, and are habitually nasty in situations where it doesn't serve any obvious purpose... then it's worth considering a hypothesis that this person actually is a nasty person who happens to belong to my faction. That their nastiness is not instrumental in fight against a greater evil, but it's who they are, it's what they enjoy doing.

Specifically: If PZ Myers wants to desecrate a catholic host not because he is an asshole, but because he honestly believes that it is instrumentally useful in creating a world where people are more nice to each other... then I would expect to find more evidence confirming that he cares about people being nice to each other. Until I get that evidence, I will consider "a person does X because they prefer doing X" my null hypothesis for human behavior.