Hi Nornagest, I'm used to forums with a multi-quote feature. I wasn't aware it wouldn't notify you if I just replied to the bottom comment.
I'm presuming no such thing; I was talking about the composition of LW, not the purpose of the downvote button. People's personal downvote policies are going to vary (quite a bit, really), but as long as the forum as a whole contains people with a mix of values similar to those I mentioned, their votes are going to average out to something like the behavior I described: some votes for conformity, some for contrarianism, some for unrelated norms.
This doesn't work in practice precisely because mass and retributive downvoting are disproportionately effective. One person with a skewed concept of downvoting can outweigh tons of other people who are using the functions as intended. I might vote up a comment by someone I like, but I'm not going to go through their profiles and give them hundreds (or even thousands) of upvotes, while we've seen the downvote-abusers do exactly this. So they won't average out properly.
The visibility effects of karma, I suspect, are overrated as a driver of behavior except in the case of top-level posts (where they're taken off most of the interface and become something of a pain to get to): leaving that "downvoted below threshold" notification seems to incite people's curiosity as much as anything. Some of my highest-ranked posts are replies to comments below the threshold; they wouldn't have gotten there if people weren't reading the thread.
We don't have a lot of clear data on this because an "ugh field" or people refraining from posting are often an invisible cost. I've had several times that I had a notion that I wanted to post about here, even considering an entire sequence or at least largely new area of discussion, then thought of some of this type of behavior and changed my mind.
Even if the "downvote below threshold" might incite curiosity, the person in question still loses privileges on site. Lastly, the Eugine_Nier news is quite encouraging and may indicate some solutions to this issue.
This doesn't work in practice precisely because mass and retributive downvoting are disproportionately effective. [...] So they won't average out properly.
See the next sentence of my comment.
Even if the "downvote below threshold" might incite curiosity, the person in question still loses privileges on site.
That's a very different case. Downvoting a person into losing privileges can by done by a single user if the target's posted a lot of marginal or controversial comments, but unless they're very new it takes a lot of patience or a downvo...
Last month I saw this post: http://lesswrong.com/lw/kbc/meta_the_decline_of_discussion_now_with_charts/ addressing whether the discussion on LessWrong was in decline. As a relatively new user who had only just started to post comments, my reaction was: “I hope that LessWrong isn’t in decline, because the sequences are amazing, and I really like this community. I should try to write a couple articles myself and post them! Maybe I could do an analysis/summary of certain sequences posts, and discuss how they had helped me to change my mind”. I started working on writing an article.
Then I logged into LessWrong and saw that my Karma value was roughly half of what it had been the day before. Previously I hadn’t really cared much about Karma, aside from whatever micro-utilons of happiness it provided to see that the number slowly grew because people generally liked my comments. Or at least, I thought I didn’t really care, until my lizard brain reflexes reacted to what it perceived as an assault on my person.
Had I posted something terrible and unpopular that had been massively downvoted during the several days since my previous login? No, in fact my ‘past 30 days’ Karma was still positive. Rather, it appeared that everything I had ever posted to LessWrong now had a -1 on it instead of a 0. Of course, my loss probably pales in comparison to that of other, more prolific posters who I have seen report this behavior.
So what controversial subject must I have commented on in order to trigger this assault? Well, let’s see, in the past week I had asked if anyone had any opinions of good software engineer interview questions I could ask a candidate. I posted in http://lesswrong.com/lw/kex/happiness_and_children/ that I was happy to not have children, and finally, here in what appears to me to be by far the most promising candidate:http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/keu/separating_the_roles_of_theory_and_direct/ I replied to a comment about global warming data, stating that I routinely saw headlines about data supporting global warming.
Here is our scenario: A new user is attempting to participate on a message board that values empiricism and rationality, posted that evidence supports that climate change is real. (Wow, really rocking the boat here!) Then, apparently in an effort to ‘win’ this discussion by silencing opposition, someone went and downvoted every comment this user had ever made on the site. Apparently they would like to see LessWrong be a bastion of empiricism and rationality and [i]climate change denial[/i] instead? And the way to achieve this is not to have a fair and rational discussion of the existing empirical data, but rather to simply Karmassassinate anyone who would oppose them?
Here is my hypothesis: The continuing problem of karma downvote stalkers is contributing to the decline of discussion on the site. I definitely feel much less motivated to try and contribute anything now, and I have been told by multiple other people at LessWrong meetings things such as “I used to post a lot on LessWrong, but then I posted X, and got mass downvoted, so now I only comment on Yvain’s blog”. These anecdotes are, of course, only very weak evidence to support my claim. I wish I could provide more, but I will have to defer to any readers who can supply more.
Perhaps this post will simply trigger more retribution, or maybe it will trigger an outswelling of support, or perhaps just be dismissed by people saying I should’ve posted it to the weekly discussion thread instead. Whatever the outcome, rather than meekly leaving LessWrong and letting my 'stalker' win, I decided to open a discussion about the issue. Thank you!