Lumifer comments on Unpopular ideas attract poor advocates: Be charitable - Less Wrong

30 [deleted] 15 September 2014 07:30PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (61)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Lumifer 16 September 2014 03:29:04PM *  4 points [-]

most people advocating for the idea that races have genetic differences in IQ are racists, because non-racists don't dare say so in most contexts.

Well, actually most people advocating for the idea that races have genetic differences in IQ are racists because that idea falls under the standard definition of racism.

Comment author: Jiro 16 September 2014 05:37:45PM 9 points [-]

It falls under a definition of racism, but another definition is "hatred or intolerance of another race or other races."

Comment author: Lumifer 16 September 2014 05:59:36PM -2 points [-]

Let's ask the hive mind :-) Google, what is the definition of racism? Google says:

rac·ism /ˈrāˌsizəm/ noun the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Genetic IQ differences clearly qualify.

Comment author: Nornagest 16 September 2014 06:14:25PM 7 points [-]

Note that this is a subject so fraught with subjectivity that Wiktionary had to include half a page of usage notes. I don't think arguing semantics is going to get anyone very far.

Comment author: Azathoth123 17 September 2014 12:48:34AM 6 points [-]

Agreed, I would argue that at this point the word "racism" has no coherent meaning, whether it ever had a coherent meaning is open to debate.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 17 September 2014 06:42:43AM *  8 points [-]

As with many other words — such as "liberal" and "set" — it has rather a lot of meanings and if you are either ① unsure of which one someone means, or ② think you know which one someone means but that meaning makes their sentence ridiculously false, then you are better off asking for clarification than guessing.

The problem is not that "racism" has no coherent meaning. No word carries inherent meaning; and many words quite safely carry multiple or ambiguous meanings without causing problems, because hearers don't panic and throw elementary principles of decent communication out the window when they hear them.

When someone says "set" and a hearer isn't sure whether they mean "set" in the Zermelo-Fraenkel sense or the game sense, the hearer typically asks.

But when someone says "racism", many hearers are likely to react incredibly poorly, even exhibiting the physiological responses of a person who is threatened or becoming enraged.

We might better ask, "Why do they respond so badly to this particular word?" I suspect the answer has a lot to do with fear of being accused of something vile. And I suggest that the poor rationality practice is at least as much on the part of hearers who let this reaction run away with them instead of finding out what is meant, as on the part of speakers who use the word without further explanation.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 17 September 2014 12:24:22PM 4 points [-]

The problem is not that "racism" has no coherent meaning.

I thought the definition that someone got from Google elsewhere in the thread was fine. The only thing that definition leaves out is what people believe about the claim that "racism" labels. Some believe that it is true and some believe that it is false, the strength of their belief either way varying in proportion to their desire to exclude from discussion the question, "is this true or false?"

We might better ask, "Why do they respond so badly to this particular word?" I suspect the answer has a lot to do with fear of being accused of something vile.

Generally, they are being accused of a belief that their accuser thinks is vile, so vile that the very question of whether it is true is also vile, so vile that it must never be discussed, and it is quite clear without further explanation that that is what is meant.

Comment author: Lumifer 16 September 2014 06:24:42PM 5 points [-]

a subject so fraught with subjectivity

I think "mindkill" is a better term here.

Comment author: ThisSpaceAvailable 11 October 2014 05:17:44AM -1 points [-]

Genetic IQ differences clearly qualify as something that ALL members of EACH race possess that is SPECIFIC to that race?

That definition is really quite strong. Not even a belief that all black people suffer from some degree of mental retardation would satisfy it. The belief that there are genes correlated with lower IQs that are more prevalent among black people certainly would not.

Comment author: ThisSpaceAvailable 16 October 2014 05:55:24AM 1 point [-]

Anyone want to explain what they found wrong with my comment?