ChristianKl comments on Kickstarting the audio version of the upcoming book "The Sequences" - Less Wrong

31 Post author: Rick_from_Castify 16 December 2014 01:01AM

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Comment author: Ixiel 12 December 2014 11:12:12AM 0 points [-]

Fair enough. I'm just glad it's when not if. When I had no takers for $100/hr to get it done by Christmas I thought it would forever be a one-of-these-days pipe dream. Big and continuing thanks to all involved.

Comment author: NxGenSentience 12 December 2014 06:16:06PM 1 point [-]

Same question as Luke's. I probably have jumped at it. I have a standing offer to make hi-def (1080) video interviews, documentaries, etc and competent, penetrating Q and A sessions, with people like Bostrom, Google-ites setting up the AI laboratories, and other vibrant, creative, contempory AI-relevant players.

I have knowledge of AI, general comp sci, deep and broad neuroscience, the mind-body problem (philosophically understood in GREAT detail -- college honors thesis at UCB was on that) and deep, detailed knowledge of all the big neurophilosphy players' theories.

These players include but are not limited to Dennett, Searle, Dreyfus, Turing, as well as modern players too numerous to mention, plus some under-discussed people like the LBL quantum physicist Henry Stapp (quantum zeno effect and it's relation to the possibility of consciousness and free will, whose papers I have been following assiduously for 15 years and think are absolutely required reading for anyone in this business.)

I have also closely followed Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose's "Orch OR" theory -- which has just been vindicated by major experiments refuting the long-running, standard objection to the possibility of quantum intra-neuronal processes (the objection based upon purportedly almost immediate, unavoidable, quantum decoherence caused by the warm, wet, noisy brain milleu) -- an objection Hameroff, Penrose, occasionally Max Tegmark (who has waxed and waned a bit over the last 15 years on this one, as I read his comments all over the web) and others, have mathematically dealth with for years, but has lacked --- until just this last year empirical support.

Said support is now there -- and with with some fanfare, I might add, in the nich scientific and philosophical mind-body and AI theoretic community that follows this -- and vindicates core aspects of this theory (although doesn't of confirm the Platonic qualia aspect.)

Worth digressing, though... for those who see this.... just as a physiological, quantum computational-theoretic account of how the brain does what it does ... particularly how it implements dendritic processing (spatial and temporal summation, triggers to LTP, inter-neuron gap junction transience, etc.) which is by consensus the locus of the bulk of the neuronal integrate and fire desicion making, this Orch OR theory is amazing in its implications. (Essentially squares the entire synaptic-level information processing of the brain as a whole, to begin with. I think this is destined to be a nobel prize-level theory eventually.)

I know Hameroff as a formerly first name basis contact, and could, though it's been a few years, rapidly trigger his memory, and get an on-tape detailed interview with him at any time.

Point is.... I have a standing offer to create detailed and theoretically competent -- thus relevant interviews and discussions -- documentaries, edit them professionally, make them available on DVD, or trnascode them for someone's branded You Tube channel (like MIRI, for example.)

No one has taken me up on that yet, either. I have a 6 thousand dollar digital camera and professional editing software to do this with, but more importantly, have 25 years of detailed study I can draw upon to make interviews that COUNT, are unique, and relevant.

No takers yet. So maybe I will go kickstarter and do them myself, on my own branded you Tube channel. Seems easier if I could get an exisitng organization like MIRI or even AAAI to sponsor my work, however. (I'd also like to cover the AAAI turing test conference in January in Texas, and do this, but need sponsorship at this point, because I am not independently wealthy.)

Comment author: ChristianKl 12 December 2014 06:32:44PM 1 point [-]

I have also closely followed Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose's "Orch OR" theory -- which has just been vindicated by major experiments refuting the long-running, standard objection to the possibility of quantum intra-neuronal processes

Just to be certain I understand you correctly, you say that it's likely that the brain uses quantum effects for decision making?

Comment author: NxGenSentience 13 December 2014 01:16:39AM 2 points [-]

I didn't exactly say that, or at least, didn't intend to exactly say that. It's correct of you to ask for that clarification.

When I say "vindicated the theory", that was, admittedly, pretty vague.

What I should have said was the recent experiments removed what has been more or less statistically the most common and continuing objection to the theory, by showing that quantum effects in microtubules, under the kind of environmental conditons that are relevant, can indeed be maintained long enough for quantum processes to "run their course" in a manner that, according to Hameroff and Penrose, makes a difference that can propogate causally to a level that is of significance to the organism.

Now, as to "decision making". I am honestly NOT trying to be coy here, but that is not entirely a transparent phrase. I would have to take a couple thousand words to unpack that (not obfuscate, but unpack), and depending on this and that, and which sorts of decisions (conscious or preconscious, highly attended or habituated and automatic), the answer could be yes or no... that is, even given that consciousness "lights up" under the influence of microtubule-dependent processes like Orch OR suggests -- admittedly something that, per se, is a further condition, for which quantum coherence within the microtubule regime is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

But the latter is plausible so many people, given a pile of other suggestive evidence. The deal breaker has always been the can or can't quantum coherence be maintained in the stated environs.

Orch OR is a very multifaceted theory, as you know, and I should not have said "vindicated" without very careful qualification. Removing a stumbling block is not proof of truth, of a theory with so many moving parts.

I do think, as a physiological theory of brain function, it has a lot of positives (some from vectors of increasing plausibility coming in from other directions, theorists and experiments) and the removal of the most commonly cited objection, on the basis of which many people have claimed Orch OR is a non-starter, is a pretty big deal.

Hameroff is not a wild-eyed speculator (and I am not suggesting that you are claiming he is.)

I find him interesting and worthy of close attention, in part because has accumulated an enormous amount of evidence for microtubule effects, and he knows the math, and presents it regularly.

I first read his Biomolecular Mind hardback book, back in the early 90's, which he actually wrote in the late 80's, at which time he had already amassed quite a bit of empiracle study regarding the role of microtubules in neurons, and in creatures whithout neurons, posessing only microtubules, that exhibit intelligent behavior.

Other experiments in various quarters over quite a few recent years (though there are still those neurobiologists who do disagree) have on the whole seemed to validate Hameroff's claim that it is quantum effects -- not "ordinry" synapse-level effects that can be described without use of the quantum level of description -- that are responsible for anaesthesia's effects on consciousness, in living brains.

Again, not a proof of Orch OR, but an indication that Hameroff is, perhaps, on to some kind of right track.

I do think that evidence is accumulating, from what I have seen in PubMed and elsewhere, that microtubule effects at least partially modulate dendritic computations, and seem to mediate the rapid remodeling of the dendritic tree (spines come and go with amazing rapidity), making it likely that the "integrate and fire" mechanism involves microtubule computation, at least in some cases.

I have seen, for example, experiments that give microtubule corrupting enzymes to some, but not control, neurons and observe dendritic tree behavior. Microtubules are in the loop in learning, attention, etc. Quantum effects in MTs.... evidence seems to grow by the month.

But, to your ending question, I would have to say what I said... which amounts to "sometimes yes, sometimes no," and in the 'yes' cases, not necessarily for the reasons that Hameroff thinks, but maybe partly, and maybe for a hybrid of additional reasons. Stapp's views have a role to play here, I think, as well.

One of my "wish list" items would be to take SOME of Hameroff's ideas and ask Stapp about them, and vice versa, in interviews, after carefully preparing questions and submitting them in advance. I have thought about how the two theories might compliment each other, or which parts of each might be independently verifyable and could be combined in a rationally coherent fashion that has some independent conceptual motivation (i.e. is other than ad hoc.)

I am in the process of preparing and writing a lenghty technical queston for Stapp, to clarify (and see what he thinks of a possible extension of) his theory of the relevance of the quantum zeno effect.

I thought of a way the quantum zeno effect, the way Stapp conceives of it, might be a way to resolve (with caveats) the simulation argument ... i.e. assess whether we are at the bottom level in the hierarchy, or are up on a sim. At least it would add another stipulation to the overall argument, which is significant in itself.

But that is another story. I have said enough to get me in trouble already, for a Friday night (grin).