Lumifer comments on Welcome to Less Wrong! (7th thread, December 2014) - Less Wrong

16 Post author: Gondolinian 15 December 2014 02:57AM

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Comment author: IlyaShpitser 06 February 2015 12:52:36PM 2 points [-]

how to un-fuckup Eastern Europe?

This is a great question, I think about this a lot too. My intuitions are: a bit of reaction, e.g. getting in touch with the glorious past. This might work w/ e.g. Poland/Lithuania, may work even on Russia, if Russia remembers how the Novgorod republic worked. But Russia is a hard nut to crack.

But yes once there is a society-wide defection norm, it is hard to get out of.

Comment author: Lumifer 06 February 2015 03:30:09PM *  2 points [-]

a bit of reaction, e.g. getting in touch with the glorious past

Isn't that what Putin is doing? I am not sure this is a great idea. The past glories tend to be associated with nationalistic wars.

Another issue is what would unfucking entail -- turning East Europeans into Scandinavians? National cultural characteristics tend to be pretty persistent :-/ Otherwise, the canonical answer seems to be a long period of civil society, rule of law, etc. I am not holding my breath.

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 06 February 2015 06:45:22PM *  1 point [-]

Russia is a super interesting special case. An interesting alternative history to ponder, re: Russia, is what would have happened had Novgorod predominated and not Moskva. Novgorod was sort of "the Lowlands of the East" in terms of the way they did things. Moskva was quite culturally nasty, and they got ahead by being basically the tax collectors for the Mongols.