Good_Burning_Plastic comments on Welcome to Less Wrong! (7th thread, December 2014) - Less Wrong

16 Post author: Gondolinian 15 December 2014 02:57AM

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Comment author: Journeyman 25 July 2015 02:05:50AM *  3 points [-]

I'll like to start by backing up a bit and explaining why I brought up the example of Rotherham. You originally came here talking about your emphasis on preventing human suffering. Rotherham is a scary example of people being hurt, which was swept under the carpet. I think Rotherham is an important case study for progressives and feminists to address.

As you note, some immigrants come from cultures (usually Muslim cultures) with very sexist attitudes towards consent. Will they assimilate and change their attitudes? Well, first I want to register some skepticism for the notion that European Muslims are assimilating. Muslims are people with their own culture, not merely empty vessels to pour progressive attitudes into. Muslims in many parts of Europe are creating patrols to enforce Sharia Law. If you want something more quantitative, Muslim polls reveal that 11% of UK Muslims believe that the Charlie Hebdo magazine "deserved" to be attacked. This really doesn't look like assimilation.

But for now, let's pretend that they are assimilating. How long will this assimilation take?

In what morality is it remotely acceptable that thousands of European women will predictably be raped or tortured by Muslim immigrant gangs while we are waiting for them to get with the feminist program?

Feminists usually take a very hardline stance against rape. It's supremely strange seeing them suddenly go soft on rape when the perpetrators are non-whites. It's not enough to say "that's wrong" after the fact, or to point out biases of the police, when these rapes were entirely preventable from the beginning. It's also not sufficient to frame rape as purely a gender issue when there are clear racial and cultural dynamics going on. There perpetrators were mostly of particular races, and fears of being racist slowed down the investigation.

Feminists are against Christian patriarchy, but they sometimes make excuses for Muslim patriarchy, which is a strange double standard. When individual feminists become too critical of Islam, they can get denounced as "racist" by progressives, or even by other feminists. Ayaan Hirsi Ali was raised as a Muslim but increasingly criticized Islam's infringement of women's rights. She was denounced by the left and universities revoked her speaking engagements.

After seeing Rotherham and Sharia patrols harassing women, there are some tough questions we should be asking.

  • Could better immigration policies select for immigrants who are on board with Western ideas about consent?
  • Could Muslim immigrants to Europe be encouraged to assimilate faster towards Western ideas about women's rights?
  • Are feminism and progressivism truly aligned in their goals? Is women's safety compatible with importing large groups of people who have very different ideas about women's rights?
  • If you found out about Rotherham from me, not from feminist or progressive sources, what else about the world have they not told you?
Comment author: Good_Burning_Plastic 25 July 2015 07:50:50AM 0 points [-]

If you want something more quantitative, Muslim polls reveal that 11% of UK Muslims believe that the Charlie Hebdo magazine "deserved" to be attacked. This really doesn't look like assimilation.

This doesn't say much unless we know the corresponding fraction among Muslims worldwide is not much larger than 11%.

Comment author: Journeyman 26 July 2015 07:40:54PM 3 points [-]

I think your implication is that Muslims are assimilating if their attitudes are shifting towards Western values after immigration. But assimilation isn't just about a delta, it's also about the end state: assimilation isn't complete until Muslims adopt Western values.

Unfortunately, there is overlap between European and non-European Muslim attitudes towards suicide bombing based on polls. France's Muslim population is especially radical. Even if they are slowly assimilating, their starting point is far outside Western values.

Comment author: Good_Burning_Plastic 26 July 2015 07:47:47PM *  0 points [-]

Well, Acty's hypothesis was that they have started assimilating but still haven't finished doing so. But thanks for the data.

(Who on Earth thought that that bulleted list of sentences in that Wikipedia article is a decent way of presenting those data, anyway? I hope I'll have the time to make a bar chart, or at least a table. And how comes my spell checker doesn't like either "bulleted" or "bulletted"?)