ChristianKl comments on The Rubber Hand Illusion and Preaching to the Unconverted - Less Wrong
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (36)
CFAR exist in the background of the realisation that's quite easy to want to be rational and read a list of mental biases but that this usually doesn't make people more rational. It thus important to develop techniques to reliably make people more rational and that includes us as well.
Just because someone changes their beliefs doesn't mean they do Bayesian inference. Bayesian inference is a specific heuristic and I consider it unlikely that the body uses it for this purpose.
You can't demonstrate that effect via text. The setup you describe needs single purpose equipment and probably a 1-to-1 with a experimentor.
The McGurk effect is much easier to demostrate if you want to show someone how is perception is flawed.
I'm not really sure that the paper demostrates that. You could also say that the person has empathy with the table. Mimikry of body language leads in humans to a feeling of rapport.
I'm also uncomfortable with the semantics of "human body" in this case. I would guess that most of the participants wouldn't say that the table is part of their body.
I do have a qualia of extending myself past the borders of my body. It a quite complex area of phenomenology. It's very hard to talk about with people who have no references for the corresponding qualia.
Are you sure the qualia is all that rare? I thought it was common for people who drive to think of their cars as extensions of themselves.
Or do you mean that you can feel the process of incorporating an object into your sense of self? I can believe that would be very rare.
I haven't driven in any car in the last 5 years, which is the time over which I have become more conscious about my perception, so I can't really tell. I would have to ask someone who has that experience and who also has a reference for hat I'm speaking about, to be certain.
Yes, that's what's more what I mean but it's very hard to find appropriate words. Some people in that state will tell you that they lose their sense of self. It takes a bit of meditation to get there.
Is there a way to train this?
The biggest influence for myself is Danis Bois's perceptive pedagogy (the former English name was somatic-psychoeducation). The problem is that it's not a well known method with little resources in English. Reading "The Wild Region of Lived Experience: Using Somatic-Psychoeducation" is unlikely very productive if you don't have previous knowledge.
Focusing by Eugene Gendlin is a book that helped a few people in the LW-sphere. It gives you a clear 6-step process. A clear process is useful for learning and the more you understand the subject domain, the more you can derivate.
About the blockquotes in this comment, for some reason I can't separate your quotes from the paper's quotes if they're right after one another, so you'll have to pay attention. To be clear, my response will always follow your quote. I've looked at Markdown syntax documentation but I can't figure out how to fix this. I'd appreciate help from anyone.
I know what CFAR is and what it's for, I just said that because I didn't know if they had tried rationality training with anyone else but entrepreneurs and people with a lot of experience in mathematics. If this has changed, I'd appreciate it if someone told me.
For one, I didn't say that Bayesian inference was the conscious process by which the person changed their beliefs.
Now, I'll begin by saying that I don't know an explicit thing about Bayesian inference. Despite that, I wrote that because I've seen this researcher cited elsewhere on the site and I assumed that if he used the adjective 'Bayesian' in one his papers, you all would want to know about it. From the paper, these are the things that I'm talking about:
I had never heard of this, but I just read the introduction to the Wikipedia article to get an idea of it and apparently the McGurk effect is hit or miss. To my knowledge, everyone can experience the rubber hand illusion regardless of previous experience.
As for this:
I really don't believe that one could say that. I may be wrong, but it seems that the paper actually addresses this:
I don't understand how this is relevant.
I agree that it's improbable that a person would explicitly consider the table a part of their body. I also think that it's probably true that most of the participants wouldn't say that they can anticipate or feel pain due to injury to something that is not part of their body.
Separate paragraph by empty lines.
They get the effect by having a stimulus applied at the same time to both hands. If the real hand moves the fake hand moves as well in the same way. That's how you create rapport. If two people are in strong rapport and you hurt one of them, the other also feels hurt.
I don't think that's true. Any neurotypical person who has a decent level of empathy, should have experiences where they felt pain when another person got hurt.
I did. I also tried putting a less-than sign on each line as suggested elsewhere. I don't know what's going on with that.
This is too vague for me to make heads or tails of it, but in any event, some subjects actually mistook the rubber hand for their real hand. I also said that some subjects felt physical pain. This is not a matter of empathizing with the pain of something else. And we're talking about a table. I don't know anyone who's ever empathized with a table.
It sounds like this is just turning into a semantic argument about the definition of the word 'pain.' You know how you feel when you see someone else get a paper cut on their finger? That's not the kind of experience that I'm talking about. You know how your finger feels when you get a paper cut? That's the kind of experience that I'm talking about. You know how you feel when you trip and you're on your way to kiss the ground? That's the kind of anticipation that I'm talking about.
Do you actually have experience with this experiment and what it feels like or does your information come from the paper?
I have not been subjected to the experiment. Even if I were, I would most likely not feel physical pain because only a small selection of subjects did. I do not believe that the terms 'pain' and 'anticipation of pain' are contestable or capable of being confused with empathy. I'm tapping out because I don't believe that this conversation is productive.
While not having done this experiment in particular I do have experience in distinguishing a lot of the relevant qualia and what mimikry does for emotional transfer.
In a study they got 31/108 to feel pain when seeing images/clips.
That's a simple picture without any rapport building and more than the 20% in study you cited report feeling pain.