Dahlen comments on What topics are appropriate for LessWrong? - Less Wrong

8 Post author: tog 12 January 2015 06:58PM

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Comment author: Dahlen 16 January 2015 08:50:39AM -1 points [-]

Trying to extract an apology out of a person through harassment 1) has SJW written all over it; 2) begets nothing resembling, in substance, an actual apology (after all, you haven't made the person change their mind), more like capitulation or an admission of weakness. This is the last possible instance when you are going to see me apologizing. Might as well not chase me into the afterlife for it. Downvote if you will and leave me be.

As long as you're engaging in an interaction with me, I have the full right to state what kind of behaviour towards me I will or will not tolerate, so don't put it as if I were bossing you around. My terms of discussion include a friendly tone and lack of sarcasm, insults, or other markers of dislike or hostility. I see those as a milder form of declaration of enmity, and instead of continuing a hostile discussion endlessly I'd rather just walk away. Talk is for friends and allies, actual and potential. For enemies there are fisticuffs, sabotage, or blissful ignorance of each other's existence.

(In case that point was left unclear, there are ways of expressing a disagreement with me or making me a reproach that don't look like the beginning of a long mutual dislike. They just don't resemble your approach here.)

the point at issue was never whether the lack of a skill is the lack of a skill, or whether the lack of a skill is unimportant, or whether there are skills that autistic people (by definition) tend to lack.

Well it kind of was the point for me.

But you have no evidence that the LW crowd does require such limitations for that very unambitious purpose.

Yes. And I will not provide any. Because as it happens I don't believe that. It seemed to me that FrameBenignly believed that in his OP, and my whole point all along has been that no, I don't think that LW belongs to the category of crowds that require those limitations, and if I am wrong and it does, then I think that's a sad state of affairs.


I have one more reply of yours somewhere that I think I need to address, because it looks like I wasn't communicating something very clearly. After that, the next reply of mine to you is going to be to a cordial tone comment, or there won't be one at all.

Comment author: gjm 16 January 2015 10:17:33AM 1 point [-]

[Most of this is meta-discussion. At the end of your comment you said something that wasn't. If anyone else is actually reading this, they're probably more interested in the non-meta. They should look ahead for the next comment in square brackets.]

Trying to extract an apology

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Obviously you are under no sort of obligation to apologize when criticized. But if your reaction is that you

  • do not apologize, AND
  • do not attempt to justify what you wrote, AND
  • ask the person criticizing you to stop doing so

then it seems reasonable to point out what's going on.

through harassment

Harassment? Everything I have written in this discussion has been in direct response to something you wrote. I have not threatened you or insulted you. I seriously can't imagine what I have done that a reasonable person would describe as harassment.

has SJW written all over it

If that's what I pattern-match to in your brain, I'm not sure there's much I can do about it. (I am with SJWs in so far as they stick up for groups that tend to get treated badly; I am against them in so far as they end up abusing other groups, treat everything as tribal warfare, and/or employ blatantly stupid arguments in doing so. Make of that what you will.)

Might as well not chase me into the afterlife for it

Good grief. I criticized something you wrote. I responded to your responses to the criticism. When you said you don't like being criticized and asked me to stop, I said "I'll stop if you will" and happened to mention that you had neither justified nor retracted what you said. That's all.

what kind of behaviour towards me I will or will not tolerate

It appears that you will not tolerate (1) criticism and/or (2) not being given the last word merely because you would prefer it. You might want to rethink that.

a milder form of declaration of enmity

I think your enmity-detectors are oversensitive, and I think that given how this discussion began you've got quite a nerve complaining that someone isn't being friendly enough towards you. To put it explicitly: I do not in any way regard you as an enemy (though I am wondering whether I should given your remarks about enmity here), I see no reason whatever why we should not be allies in the future, but I strongly disagree with some things you have been saying in this discussion and how you have been saying them. That's all.

[Non-meta here:]

as it happens I don't believe that

OK. That's better than the impression I got from the way you began:

If anything, not being able / advised to discuss any of the above topics reflects significantly less rationality than the average person [...] the best thing I could say about a crowd that would abide by such norms is that they have a highly lopsided intellectual development [...] the failure to handle banal conversation topics like pop culture or humour casts doubt on the truth or intellectual value of the things such a crowd does accept to discuss

which was (at least to my reading) all about the cognitive failures one could infer from requiring those limitations.

(If your argument was intended to be "We'd only need those limitations if we had Bad Characteristic X, but obviously we don't, so we don't need the limitations" -- with the second half of the argument so obvious as not even to need stating -- then I submit that it was a mistake to choose for Bad Characteristic X something that (1) LW documentedly exhibits a way-above-average rate of and (2) LW folks have more than once been attacked for in the past.)