RichardKennaway comments on Behavior: The Control of Perception - Less Wrong

30 Post author: Vaniver 21 January 2015 01:21AM

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Comment author: Vaniver 21 January 2015 04:26:38PM *  4 points [-]

Seems I should be looking for a function of the inputs that is "surprisingly" approximately constant

I think in most situations where you don't have internal observations of the various actors, it's more likely that outputs will be constant than a function of the inputs. That is, a control system adjusts the relationship between an input and an output, often by counteracting it completely--thus we would see the absence of a relationship that we would normally expect to see. (But if we don't know what we would normally expect, then we have trouble.)

Anyone have a link to a good paper on this?

I'm leaning pretty heavily on a single professor/concept for this answer, but there's a phrase called "Milton Friedman's Thermostat," perhaps best explained here (which also has a few links for going further down the trail):

If a house has a good thermostat, we should observe a strong negative correlation between the amount of oil burned in the furnace (M), and the outside temperature (V). But we should observe no correlation between the amount of oil burned in the furnace (M) and the inside temperature (P). And we should observe no correlation between the outside temperature (V) and the inside temperature (P).

An econometrician, observing the data, concludes that the amount of oil burned had no effect on the inside temperature. Neither did the outside temperature. The only effect of burning oil seemed to be that it reduced the outside temperature. An increase in M will cause a decline in V, and have no effect on P.

A second econometrician, observing the same data, concludes that causality runs in the opposite direction. The only effect of an increase in outside temperature is to reduce the amount of oil burned. An increase in V will cause a decline in M, and have no effect on P.

But both agree that M and V are irrelevant for P. They switch off the furnace, and stop wasting their money on oil.

They also give another example with a driver adjusting how much to press the gas pedal based on hills here, along with a few ideas on how to discover the underlying relationships.


I feel like it's worth mentioning the general project of discovering causality (my review of Pearl, Eliezer's treatment), but that seems like it's going in the reverse direction. If a controller is deleting correlations from your sense data, that makes discovering causality harder, and it seems difficult to say "aha, causality is harder to discover than normal, therefore there are controllers!", but that might actually be effective.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 21 January 2015 10:37:55PM 4 points [-]

If a controller is deleting correlations from your sense data, that makes discovering causality harder, and it seems difficult to say "aha, causality is harder to discover than normal, therefore there are controllers!", but that might actually be effective.

Yes, in the PCT field this is called the Test for the Controlled Variable. Push on a variable, and if it does not change, and it doesn't appear to be nailed down, there's probably a control system there.

I have an unpublished paper relating the phenomenon to causal analysis à la Pearl, but it's been turned down by two journals so far, and I'm not sure I can be bothered to rewrite it again.

Comment author: V_V 04 February 2015 02:18:26PM 2 points [-]

I have an unpublished paper relating the phenomenon to causal analysis à la Pearl, but it's been turned down by two journals so far, and I'm not sure I can be bothered to rewrite it again.

arXiv?

Comment author: RichardKennaway 04 February 2015 02:28:26PM 0 points [-]

arXiv?

I looked at arXiv, but there's still a gateway process. It's less onerous than passing referee scrutiny, but still involves getting someone else with sufficient reputation on arXiv to ok it. As far as I know, no-one in my university department or in the research institute I work at has ever published anything there. I have accounts on researchgate and academia.edu, so I could stick it there.

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 04 February 2015 03:38:17PM 2 points [-]

I have never had any issues putting things up on the arXiv (just have to get through their latex process, which has some wrinkles). I think I have seen a draft of your paper, and I don't see how arXiv would have an issue with it. Did arXiv reject your draft somehow?

Comment author: RichardKennaway 04 February 2015 09:13:46PM *  1 point [-]

I haven't sent it there. I created an account on arXiv a while back, and as far as I recall there was some process requiring a submission from someone new to be endorsed by someone else. This, I think, although on rereading I see that it only says that they "may" post facto require endorsement of submissions by authors new to arXiv, it's not a required part of the submission process. What happened the very first time you put something there?

Comment author: satt 09 February 2015 04:05:09AM 1 point [-]

(I know I'm not IlyaShpitser, but better my reply than no reply.) I have several papers on the arXiv, and the very first time I submitted one I remember it being automatically posted without needing endorsement (and searching my inbox confirms that; there's no extra email there asking me to find an endorser). If you submit a not-obviously-cranky-or-offtopic preprint from a university email address I expect it to sail right through.

Comment author: alienist 10 February 2015 05:04:34AM 6 points [-]

(I know I'm not IlyaShpitser, but better my reply than no reply.) I have several papers on the arXiv, and the very first time I submitted one I remember it being automatically posted without needing endorsement

How long ago was this? I believe the endorsement for new submitters requirement was added ~6 years ago.

Comment author: satt 11 February 2015 12:26:53AM 0 points [-]

My first submission was in 2012. I'm fairly sure I read about the potential endorsement-for-new-submitters condition at the time, too.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 11 February 2015 07:46:30AM 1 point [-]

Well, I've just managed to put a paper up on arXiv (a different one that's been in the file drawer for years), so that works.

Comment author: [deleted] 11 February 2015 02:09:13AM 1 point [-]

Because they're so small, I feel like their policies can be really inconsistent from circumstance to circumstance. I've got a couple papers on arXiv, but my third one has been mysteriously on hold for some months now for reasons that are entirely unclear to me.

Comment author: Lumifer 04 February 2015 03:26:02PM 2 points [-]
Comment author: Vaniver 22 January 2015 01:00:27AM *  1 point [-]

I have an unpublished paper relating the phenomenon to causal analysis à la Pearl, but it's been turned down by two journals so far, and I'm not sure I can be bothered to rewrite it again.

I'd be interested in seeing it, if you don't mind! (My email is my username at gmail, or you can contact me any of the normal ways.)