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johnlawrenceaspden comments on Fake Utility Functions - Less Wrong
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But just liking the ants is also not sufficient. You might kill the bird for wanting to eat the ant, and then realize that all birds are threats, and kill all birds without telling the ants, because that's the maximizing solution, despite the possibility of the ants not wanting this and objecting had they known about it.
FAI is not impossible, but it's certainly a hard problem in many ways.
Also, there are problems with "by your basic nature you like the ant". Have you read the Guide to Words yet?
Indeed. I was hoping to refute the refutation in its own language.
Ah, thanks for clarifying that. While I don't want to other-optimize, I feel compelled to tell you that many people would say such a strategy is usually suboptimal, and often leads into falling into the trap of an "argumentative opponent".
Incidentally, this strikes me as particularly vulnerable to the worst argument in the world, (probably) due to my availability heuristic.
Actually I rather like the idea of being optimized. Have you got any good links to sources of argument/counterargument strategies? The more I read about the Dark Arts, the more I wish to learn them.
Being optimized is net positive, and generally understood as good. Other-optimizing, on the other hand, is prone to tons of heuristical errors, map imperfections, scaling problems, mind projection and many other problems such that attempting to optimize the strategy of someone else for many things not already reduced is very risky and has low expected utility, often in the negatives. Telling others what argumentative techniques to use or not definitely falls into this category.
That's the thing with the Dark Arts. They lure you in, craft a beautiful song, fashion an intricate and alluring web of rapid-access winning arguments with seemingly massive instrumental value towards achieving further-reaching goals... but they trap and ensnare you, they freeze your thought into their logic, they slow down and hamper solid rationality, and they sabotage the thoughts of others.
It takes quite a master of rationality to use the art of Shadowdancing with reliably positive net expected utility. As long as you want to optimize for the "greater good", that is.
I thank you for your concern. I'd never even think about being evil unless it were for the greater good.
Most evil people would say that. They'd even believe it.
curses. there goes my cover.