"Bin Laden himself may or may not have theocratic aims" - May or may not?
"My point was that without the political grievances, he just becomes some fanatic spouting rhetoric. With political grievances, he has supporters and recruits." Once again, this assumes that his supporters and recruits think in a way that follows yours. I have to just say [citation needed]. Let's take one example: 99% of Afghans think that the punishment for apostasy should be death. The assumption that there is not a large support for theocracy is unwarranted, at best.
"I call it superficial because it just so happens to align perfectly with our own interests. "
First of all, that's a non sequitor. It is in my interest to think that the water from the tap is healthy. I still haven't been sick yet. It's in my interest to think my employer will pay me at the end of the month. Never failed yet.
Second, however, - who is this "our" in that sentence? And what interests? From my perspective, if Islamic jihad has a goal that is at least understandable to us, something like the Basque ETA or the IRA, then that's something we can deal with. On the other hand, if its goals are like those stated by Hassan Nasrallah - "We want nothing from you, we want to eliminate you" - that's another matter entirely. I would far, far, far rather deal with the first kind of an enemy, rather than the second.
To the subject of the bin Laden list of grievances, one of them is that the United States helped free East Timor from Indonesian rule, and end the genocide of the Christian nation there. To the Islamic fanatics, this is outrageous, because it is a matter of doctrine that no conquered infidel nation may ever be freed from Islamic rule.
Let's take one example: 99% of Afghans think that the punishment for apostasy should be death.
That number struck me as surprisingly high, so I went looking for the source and I think it's this. The 99% number is for "Muslims who favor making Islamic law the official law" in Afghanistan. The death-for-apostasy proportion is actually only 79% for pro-sharia Afghan Muslims (which is still 79% too high, but isn't 99%).
First post here, and I'm disagreeing with something in the main sequences. Hubris acknowledged, here's what I've been thinking about. It comes from the post "Are your enemies innately evil?":
If I'm misreading this, please correct me, but the way I am reading this is:
1) People do not construct their stories so that they are the villains,
therefore
2) the idea that Al Qaeda is motivated by a hatred of American freedom is false.
Reading the Al Qaeda document released after the attacks called Why We Are Fighting You you find the following:
"Freedom" is of course one of those words. It's easy enough to imagine an SS officer saying indignantly: "Of course we are fighting for freedom! For our people to be free of Jewish domination, free from the contamination of lesser races, free from the sham of democracy..."
If we substitute the symbol with the substance though, what we mean by freedom - "people to be left more or less alone, to follow whichever religion they want or none, to speak their minds, to try to shape society's laws so they serve the people" - then Al Qaeda is absolutely inspired by a hatred of freedom. They wouldn't call it "freedom", mind you, they'd call it "decadence" or "blasphemy" or "shirk" - but the substance is what we call "freedom".
Returning to the syllogism at the top, it seems to be that there is an unstated premise. The conclusion "Al Qaeda cannot possibly hate America for its freedom because everyone sees himself as the hero of his own story" only follows if you assume that What is heroic, what is good, is substantially the same for all humans, for a liberal Westerner and an Islamic fanatic.
(for Americans, by "liberal" here I mean the classical sense that includes just about everyone you are likely to meet, read or vote for. US conservatives say they are defending the American revolution, which was broadly in line with liberal principles - slavery excepted, but since US conservatives don't support that, my point stands).
When you state the premise baldly like that, you can see the problem. There's no contradiction in thinking that Muslim fanatics think of themselves as heroic precisely for being opposed to freedom, because they see their heroism as trying to extend the rule of Allah - Shariah - across the world.
Now to the point - we all know the phrase "thinking outside the box". I submit that if you can recognize the box, you've already opened it. Real bias isn't when you have a point of view you're defending, but when you cannot imagine that another point of view seriously exists.
That phrasing has a bit of negative baggage associated with it, that this is just a matter of pigheaded close-mindedness. Try thinking about it another way. Would you say to someone with dyscalculia "You can't get your head around the basics of calculus? You are just being so close minded!" No, that's obviously nuts. We know that different peoples minds work in different ways, that some people can see things others cannot.
Orwell once wrote about the British intellectuals inability to "get" fascism, in particular in his essay on H.G. Wells. He wrote that the only people who really understood the nature and menace of fascism were either those who had felt the lash on their backs, or those who had a touch of the fascist mindset themselves. I suggest that some people just cannot imagine, cannot really believe, the enormous power of faith, of the idea of serving and fighting and dying for your god and His prophet. It is a kind of thinking that is just alien to many.
Perhaps this is resisted because people think that "Being able to think like a fascist makes you a bit of a fascist". That's not really true in any way that matters - Orwell was one of the greatest anti-fascist writers of his time, and fought against it in Spain.
So - if you can see the box you are in, you can open it, and already have half-opened it. And if you are really in the box, you can't see the box. So, how can you tell if you are in a box that you can't see versus not being in a box?
The best answer I've been able to come up with is not to think of "box or no box" but rather "open or closed box". We all work from a worldview, simply because we need some knowledge to get further knowledge. If you know you come at an issue from a certain angle, you can always check yourself. You're in a box, but boxes can be useful, and you have the option to go get some stuff from outside the box.
The second is to read people in other boxes. I like steelmanning, it's an important intellectual exercise, but it shouldn't preclude finding actual Men of Steel - that is, people passionately committed to another point of view, another box, and taking a look at what they have to say.
Now you might say: "But that's steelmanning!" Not quite. Steelmanning is "the art of addressing the best form of the other person’s argument, even if it’s not the one they presented." That may, in some circumstances, lead you to make the mistake of assuming that what you think is the best argument for a position is the same as what the other guy thinks is the best argument for his position. That's especially important if you are addressing a belief held by a large group of people.
Again, this isn't to run down steelmanning - the practice is sadly limited, and anyone who attempts it has gained a big advantage in figuring out how the world is. It's just a reminder that the steelman you make may not be quite as strong as the steelman that is out to get you.
[EDIT: Link included to the document that I did not know was available online before now]