Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, March 2015, chapter 114 + chapter 115
This is a new thread to discuss Eliezer Yudkowsky’s Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality and anything related to it. This thread is intended for discussing chapter 114, and also, as a special case due to the exceptionally close posting times, chapter 115.
There is a site dedicated to the story at hpmor.com, which is now the place to go to find the authors notes and all sorts of other goodies. AdeleneDawner has kept an archive of Author’s Notes. (This goes up to the notes for chapter 76, and is now not updating. The authors notes from chapter 77 onwards are on hpmor.com.)
You do not need to rot13 anything about HP:MoR or the original Harry Potter series unless you are posting insider information from Eliezer Yudkowsky which is not supposed to be publicly available (which includes public statements by Eliezer that have been retracted).
If there is evidence for X in MOR and/or canon then it’s fine to post about X without rot13, even if you also have heard privately from Eliezer that X is true. But you should not post that “Eliezer said X is true” unless you use rot13.
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"I wonder how difficult it would be to just make a list of all the top blood purists and kill them.
They'd tried exactly that during the French Revolution, more or less - make a list of all the enemies of Progress and remove everything above the neck..." -Harry's internal monologue, HPMOR Chapter 7
"Amusing, but that was not your first fleeting thought before you substituted something safer, less damaging. No, what you remembered was how you considered lining up all the blood purists and guillotining them. And now you are telling yourself you were not serious, but you were. If you could do it this very moment and no one would ever know, you would." -The Sorting Hat, HPMOR Chapter 10
Well...well I guess it wasn't technically a guillotine. And Harry didn't make a list himself. But Harry did do it, and set it up so no one would ever know.
This is bloody brilliant foreshadowing!
Eliezer was clearly thinking ahead.
Other note. Dumbeldore defeated Voldemort. He placed Minerva to intercept any discoveries of Harry and he made Harry swear not to tell anyone about it. This left Voldemort underprepaired against the weapon that got him in the end. Dumbeldore had a million plots going, and this one worked. Sometiems one is all you need.
Also don't forget trapping himself in the mirror rather than Harry.
After sleeping on it, I'd like to raise two problems I have with the last double-update, and see what you guys think.
1. That Harry would be able to cast Partial Transfiguration in those circumstances does not seem clearly and unambiguously established by the story so far.
(unless I'm missing something, in which case please point it out to me.)
I'm not saying it's wrong that he was able to cast it. I'm saying that as a reader, I couldn't know that in advance, and that's bad for a story.
First we're told that you can't transfigure air. And EY repeatedly insists Harry cannot overcome any limitations of magic in 60 seconds, so that felt like a hint not to look for a spellcasting solution, at least not without regaining some freedom of movement first.
We did get an earlier scene where Harry considers the fact that his wand is showing some minor wear and tear, and seems robust against small loss of wood. So yes, that feels like a hint in the other direction, maybe even fairly strong evidence.
But the thing is, magic in Harry Potter universe is arbitrary in so many ways, like that you have to say "Wingardum Leviosa" and not something else if you want to levitate something. HPMoR draws attention to this fact repeatedly. Indeed, Harry is even thinking about the absurdity of it in that scene where he is considering the minor damage to his wand!
AFAIK, you can only transfigure something you're touching with your wand. Now, does your wand count as something touching your wand? A gun can't fire at itself. A square in Conway's Game of Life does not count itself as "adjacent". Or for a more in-universe example of "don't act on yourself": you can't levitate yourself with Wingardum Leviosa. So I could easily imagine problems with casting spells on your own wand, too. (Or I could imagine intentionally removing matter from the wand causing it to become defective.)
So should transfiguring a piece of your wand have been possible? Nothing clearly says "no", but it seems the sort of a thing that we wouldn't know for sure until we saw Harry test it. And, correct me if I'm wrong, we never saw Harry test it.
(Aside: could you partially-transfigure a piece of your hand? Or do you have to be touching the transfigured object with the business end, and not the grip? Again, I don't know, that's the point.)
Easy solution: what if, in ch91, when Harry had noticed the accumulating wear on his wand, he'd remembered that he wants to live forever and "a wand would last through a standard lifetime" didn't feel like sufficient reassurance. So to protect his wand from further wear, he has it painted/covered in a transparent... what's the word I'm looking for? Fixative? The sort of a wood paint that you use for the wood's protection. You know what I mean.
Then in chapter 114 he could just transfigure the fixative, which would be clearly in contact with the tip of his wand.
2. The tone feels wrong.
In ch115, the sense of urgency, of deadly threat, of fear, went out like air from a deflated balloon.
Harry should be in Moody-paranoia mode, not in Far Mode Goodness mode. He should be worrying about what could still go wrong, not about what action would be sufficiently nice from the pov of a hypothetical future civilisation. He should be afraid of Voldemort still somehow winning, of all the consequences if he goofs up now. I said it before, but anything other than ruthless pragmatism in that situation feels insane to me.
Remember proper pessimism?
That's what we needed more of.
Example: Did Harry even bother to properly check that all the Death Eaters were dead, that he didn't mess any of that up? He seems to pay them little attention, like he's read the script and knows that this is the part in the story where he wins, so nothing can go fundamentally wrong.
Voldemort is only incapacitated. Harry should be in a hurry, he should be deadly aware of how much he's gonna get it, if for whatever reasons something should go wrong now. (He does think the thought about how if Voldie awakens, things will get bad, but it feels robotically logical.)
He should have instantly (I mean literally instantly, with the use of the Time Turner) brought Moody upon the scene. For example to check for anyone Disillusioned that Voldemort might have pre-planted at the scene and who was now about to act. Or for any other unforeseen need that could only be handled by an adult, experienced wizard, not someone with Harry's level of power.
Even if Harry decides he doesn't need Moody for Cruciatus purposes, still, once he thought of involving Moody for whatever reason, he should have realized that it would be a really, really smart thing to quickly get him involved and query his greater experience at being pessimistic, to make sure every precaution is taken.
But not to lose the forest for the trees: it's the overall tone that bugs me. HPJEV always felt at risk of being a bit of a marysue, and this completely went away in chapters 104-113, but 115 is one of the offenders. Keeping a sense of urgency and vulnerability would have been good. Harry's taking the time to look at stars and think about balance and morality and the "children's children's children" feels too leisurely, he's too much the master of the situation, and too much a saint.
I could see that weeks later, in a final chapter, when he's finally believing on a gut level that the threat is over (and so does the reader). But not now.
I mostly agree with the first part, and it's an important reason for which I didn't like the "final exam" concept, there is just too much we don't really know about how HPMOR world works. It's fine from a pure story-telling point of view, because we can assume Harry knows more about it than we do (he's living in it after all, he did read many books about magic, do many experiments, attend to lessons, ...) but it's not fair to ask us to outguess such things.
For the second part, I don't really agree. Think about the emotional state of Harry. He got through a very very stressy times, and despite all odds, he won. I must be feeling some euphoria for that. And at the same time, he killed dozens fo people. In self-defense, sure. But he, the anti-deathist just killed dozens of people. In such a situation, the mixing of euphoria of winning against all odds and the horror of having just killed, wondering what the future ethical transhuman civilization would do and think about all that feels totally appropriate to me. It's exactly what I would expect of Harry, the one who (re-)invented True Patronus.
So, apparently, the final exam question was "What would Taylor Hebert do?".
Alternatively, "What would Neji do?"
Thank you for that mental image, which will likely never leave the traumatised recesses of my mind.
Anyone who gives a speech in a school talking about how drugs are fun is a good person to emulate, IMO.
Do The Impossible, indeed. Looping a thin thread over someone's head several meters away is tricky business. The slightest bit of wind throws it off. And this must be done without moving the wand or betraying the operation through one's facial expression. I can't imagine it being done without the utmost concentration, allowing of course for effort to be expended talking to Voldemort and maintaining mental blocks against any Legilimens among the Death Eaters (recall that in Half-Blood Prince Snape was able to detect spells forming in Harry's mind). This is all done perfectly the first time around. Thirty-six times, plus Voldemort's wrists.
I suppose one can honestly say A Wizard Did It...
Why are Hermione's robes red? Does Voldie want her to be Gryffindor?
I feel like the problem turned out to be unnecessarily easier than it had to, that too much of the credit is due to luck, and some things could've been done better (Death Eaters could be saved). It's somewhat of a theme with all these spells and rituals being performed in unique situations and working on the first try, with little precaution taken to test them or theoretical grounds to expect reliability. For example, Hermione still wasn't tested. It's the first resurrection ever performed, at least by the people present. It involved further effects that might've never been combined in this way before. The person who knows the details is now defunct. He didn't plan to test it either, for the primary use case intended. Hermione's brain is warm and might be losing information or she might get terminally sick soon, with brain damage. We just assume everything worked.
One problem is that Harry didn't know that he can remain conscious after directly casting a spell at Voldemort, so it should've been planned around, with the less direct transfiguration being plan A for rendering Voldemort unconscious. We now know that this might've failed (more likely than before Ch. 114), and there had to be another attempt. But failing to remain conscious while Voldemort is unconscious amounts to losing the war, so it was very important to avoid risking that Stuporfy. For example, grabbing the Time Turner might've been a better idea, then he could've made the same shot at the same time using the future self, but with an ally ready to Innervate the future self afterwards and/or contain the resulting unconscious Voldemort. Voldemort, in turn, should've made more of an attempt to get out of there in response to the situation he didn't understand, rather than just dodging. Then there's the wand, which had no place being available at that particular moment. It should've been used around when the Vow was made instead.
The setting also made it possible for Harry to cast further spells on Voldemort, even Transfigure him. This capability isn't necessary for the tasks at hand, as he could've got help. In any case, Transfiguring Voldemort into an inanimate form wasn't a safe thing to do (at least he didn't apply the Stone, which might've made it a regular ring unrelated to the original body and unable to anchor the spirit, although it might eliminate the spirit if it was also Transfigured). It might've let the spirit free (either by default or as a result of Voldemort preparing for this possibility), so at least there should've been further precautions taken before (such as making a Harry-Transfigured sarcophagus around the body to attempt containing the spirit). Further precautions unknown to Harry could've been taken by using the Time Turner to summon help to arrive immediately (not to mention saving the Death Eaters by cooling their brains, so that after all nobody had to die). Harry continuing to blast the body with resonance stunners could've prolonged Voldemort's unconscious state. Drugging the body would be further redundancy. If a Transfiguration of the body is risked, it could've been into a living thing, paralyzed-by-construction and with a smaller brain.
Severely Obliviating Voldemort wasn't a safe thing to do, as having an insane immortal spirit might be a very bad thing in the long run (such as in a thousand years, assuming no intelligence explosion), if it ever got out of the body, for example as a result of the body getting Transfigured. We know Voldemort doesn't want the World destroyed and is at least somewhat human, but a person resulting from centuries worth of reflection by an insane remnant of Voldemort might want some very strange things far removed from human values. Torturing to insanity would've been even more irresponsible. It was better to avoid these events, if possible, and at least delay them until further consideration if Transfiguration was planned as a method of indefinite temporary containment. For example, a more careful Obliviation by a more experienced wizard could've shaped the person to have more agreeable values and less capability (and could be applied immediately, via Time Turner, to avoid Transfiguration). If the result is no person at all, there should be an understanding of the process that guarantees that after a million years there still won't be a person in the spirit.
My criteria for whether a character acts smart or stupid is whether I can see a glaring issue immediately. Like many others, I had asked right after ch.113 "why does Harry still have his wand and his glasses"? And, sure enough. Whatever trope describes the villain suddenly going into the Stupid and Careless mode at a critical time, it sure applies here. LV probably broke a few rules from the Evil Overlord's list, too.
The trope that describes a character (villain or otherwise) suddenly going stupid and careless is Holding the Idiot Ball. Which EY promised that nobody would ever do.
Still hoping for a plot twist which somehow justifies this apparent Villain Ball.
Dumbledore appeared much more wielding the "idiot ball" than Voldemort in this final arc.
Voldemort initially needed Harry to have his wand for the Unbreakable Vow. Yes, it was a mistake to not remove the wand from him afterward.
He couldn't imagine Harry would be a threat with a wand without being allowed to speak or move it, partial transfiguration of carbon nanotubes or antimatter from the wand itself just was unimaginable to him, so it's an understandable mistake, but it does strike as odd when compared to all the precaution he's taking in "paranoia mode".
The big problem is that he left Harry his wand. If he uses more precautions against Harry, but still keeps leaving Harry his wand, then that makes the fact that he left Harry his wand less realistic, not more. So I actually think that you should go the other way with it - have him be less paranoid about Harry. Because otherwise you're making the inconsistency even worse. He's being cautious and paranoid enough to strip Harry's clothes from him, but leaves the wand in Harry's hand for one moment longer than he has to? It makes more sense if he has the Death Eaters throw a bunch of Finites at him to check for residual traps left by Dumbledore, and for that to be where he sees most of the threat coming from.
This.
Voldemort's not only being paranoid enough to strip Harry's clothes from him, he's being careful and cautious enough to remove an object Harry Transfigured without letting their magics interact. That kind of attitude is jarringly inconsistent with leaving Harry his wand for no apparent reason.
LukeASomers already suggested adding a reason for Harry to have his wand. I think that adding such a reason combined with changes that increase our estimate of Voldemort's estimate of P(Time will try to thwart Voldemort's attempt to avert the prophecy through something other than Harry | Time will try to thwart Voldemort's attempt to avert the prophecy) would make things seem much more consistent; leaving Harry his clothes and having some (not necessarily most) of the Death Eaters looking outwards would both help with the latter.
The reason I suggest increasing readers' estimates of Voldemort's estimate of P(Time will try to thwart Voldemort's attempt to avert the prophecy through something other than Harry | Time will try to thwart Voldemort's attempt to avert the prophecy) rather than just making Voldemort less paranoid overall in this situation is to avoid worsening the Villain Ball complaints; shifting his paranoia partly elsewhere allows him to be the sharp antagonist we're expecting while suggesting that he's confident the precautions he takes are sufficient to neutralize Harry as a threat (which allows Harry to win). That confidence isn't out of place for his character - even though he's read Muggle books, it's entirely plausible that he hasn't integrated that knowledge well enough to start questioning what he knows as the limits of magic (and thereby come to think of partial Transfiguration, or more generally realize that Harry might question those limits and succeed in discovering something he can wordlessly cast without pointing his wand).
The particular changes I mentioned also have the side benefit of not really affecting the major proposed solutions to the Final Exam. If you do change it, I think a historical version should be preserved for correspondence with the Collective Intelligence's effort.
I would add a reason for Harry to have the wand.
Like, instead of, "You will not raise your wand", "You will only raise your wand when and how I permit it. Do not demonstrate a spell unless ordered."
That would imply that Voldemort was open to the possibility that Harry might demonstrate something, which would require arming him.
This was actually my original assumption as to why Voldemort let Harry keep his wand, and I was surprised it didn't come into play. Adding a line to the effect of "demonstrate some spell" would solve pretty much every problem raised by the readers, and as such, this is by far my favorite solution proposed so far. Upvoted enthusiastically.
Your phrasing makes it also look like a plausible mistake for someone in a new situation with little time to consider things.
I'm not sure what you mean here.
I was aiming for it to be a mistake that someone could make even in a relatively familiar situation with ample time to consider.
This is by far my favorite change that seems probably-acceptable-to-eliezer.
I'd have preferred if the winning stroke included (at least in the "talking to buy time" section) something that addressed learning to lose, or keeping secrets, or their different mental-frameworks that enable different powers. But I assume Eliezer's less willing to retcon that sort of thing.
As AlexanderWales says, the biggest flaw is the wand. If you add a line about harry being left holding his wand so that Voldemort can impose further unbreakable vows if he sees fit, or he has it left in case he needs to demonstrate any secret knowledge (along the lines of Patronus 2.0), Voldemort goes from holding the Idiot Ball to just making a mistake. He's trading off Harry possibly doing something impossible with his wand vs a far likelier benefit.
Having the Death Eaters look around makes sense, but the paralysis seems contrived to me. It's a very specific level of intelligence between what he have now and just having Mr. Grim cast Expelliarmus. I think it is more realistic for Voldemort to have dismissed the threat than for him to have considered it and decided that paralyzing Harry was the best solution.
Don't be too hasty, whatever you end up deciding! It's only been a day. A lot of people put a lot of thought into solving this problem, and it makes sense that their attitudes about whether the problem was too easy, or too hard, or whether they solved guessed the author's solution, or whether it's unrealistic, would be emotionally enhanced by the effort they spent.
Take a week, take a month, talk to people you trust.
I think the only thing that would satisfy me is a legitimate excuse for Voldemort to leave Harry armed. Anything short of that, you may as well leave it as-is for historical reasons.
If you want to make the scenario more realistic then put more time pressure on Voldemort or put him under more cognitive stress some other way. The hardest part for Voldemort is solving this problem in a short time span and NOT coming up with a solution that foils Harry. The reason experienced soldiers/gamers with little to no intelligence still win against highly intelligent combatants with no experience is that TIME matters when you're limited to a single human's processing power. In virtually every combat situation one is forced to make decisions faster than one can search the solution space. Only experience compensates for this deficit to any measurable degree. In this situation there are several aspects that Voldemort does not have experience with. If he must spends his cognitive resources considering these aspects and cannot draw from experience it makes mistakes much more likely.
I'm going to repost something I wrote in another bit of the discussion:
V has established that he is willing to try to intervene at every possible point when it comes to breaking the prophecy. So he would paralyze Harry, and take Harry's wand from him, and destroy Harry's wand. Especially in the context of V asking Harry to share secrets V doesn't have.
It seems to me the simplest place to intervene is the characterization of V. Have Harry, during one of his bleak "how the heck am I going to defeat V" moments (or possibly at the start of 114), remember what gattsuru talks about here. V is sharp but limited; Harry can use those limits against him. Then Harry surprising V makes more sense, and every idea Harry uses could explicitly be linked to one of V's weaknesses. (For example, Stuporfy works because V disdains dueling.)
Even then, I do not think it will work fully, and some readers will only be satisfied by a 'mutual victory' ending. I have in mind an ending that would work for that that I'll write up when I have time for fiction (tonight?), but it requires more changes earlier and may not match at all your goals for the fic.
(Incidentally, if I were in V's position and knew about Time-Turners, those could be used to add a further layer of security. I would precommit to Time-Turning back an hour and asking Harry to reveal his secrets in the presence of my original version iff Harry in fact revealed his secrets to the future copy of me that appeared and then died quietly; otherwise I would kill him immediately. This might violate the "use Time-Turners for arbitrary computation" rule, but I don't think so; it seems closer to asking Flitwick to rescue past-you, or the original Time-Turner prank, or a minor modification of it could move it into that class.)
What I'm uncertain about is what was going through Voldemort's mind at the time. I have no idea what he was thinking when he let Harry keep his wand, and so for me, that part kind of fell flat, especially when it turned out there was no explanation other than, "He was overconfident"... which sounds like an explanation, but isn't one, not really. It's just like saying "magic" or "phlogiston". How does the mokeskin pouch work? "Magic!" What causes fire? "Phlogiston!" Why did Voldemort let Harry keep his wand? "Overconfidence!" For me, that just isn't specific enough of an explanation to actually allow me to make predictions. My model of Voldemort can't receive "overconfidence" as an argument and spit out the action "let Harry keep his wand"; the argument isn't well-specified enough. How was he overconfident? What was his exact train of thought? As Harry put it in 108:
Since the explanation "overconfidence" didn't make me feel like I would have predicted Voldemort's actions in advance, it remained an improbability.
I'm not suggesting for you to add a scene from Voldemort's point of view into Chapter 113 or something--that would be a jarring shift in perspective, IMO. (Although it would be nice if you could somehow give a hint at Voldemort's motives--I particularly liked Luke_A_Somers' suggestion.) That being said, I am curious: what was your model of Voldemort thinking when you had him let Harry keep his wand? If not too inconvenient, could you elaborate on what you were modeling Voldemort's thoughts as?
Long time lurker, signing up just to be able to vote for the harder version. Turns out I start out with 0 karma and am not allowed to vote. Oh well.
Now you have one karma. Give it another try?
The biggest problem for me is that when I imagine myself reading these events and Voldemort going, "A nice try but I can sense whatever transfiguration trick it is that you're using. Thank you, that will take me some time to perfect in my eternity," I don't feel surprised.
Throwing additional stipulations and conditions into the situation doesn't change the fact that the way in which Voldemort loses is not convincing.
It doesn't feel like Harry earned the win because I can just as easily imagine Voldemort laughing at Harry's childish tricks and killing him. For the finale to truly be satisfying, there has to be a specific, pre-established reason why Voldemort was unable to defend against Harry's tactics and, at least in my mind, this was not the case.
Simply being unaware of partial transfiguration doesn't cut it. This is a person who casts nearly thirty charms to discuss sensitive information in Mary's room and recognizes the value of ambush and surprise attacks. Yet in his final moment of securing his eternity is unable to sense transfigured material winding its way around himself and his followers. Material transfigured by person he has a known magical resonance with.
It simply does not feel reasonable for Voldemort to lose like this, no matter how many addendums are added to justify his behavior in these final chapters.
I do remark that Dumbledore was unable to detect Harry doing an ongoing Transfiguration while he looked into Harry's prison cell in Azkaban.
I admit I did forget about that specific incident.
However, Dumbledore going cell to cell in Azkaban and Lord Voldemort attempting to subvert a prophecy predicting the end of the world in a fixed, controlled location seem like two very different things from a reader perspective.
It is also implied that Dumbledore did sense Harry's magic - at least on some level.
But he dismisses this because he is looking for a wizard strong enough to break into Azkaban and free Bellatrix Black. Lord Voldemort on the other hand, should be immediately and unconditionally suspicious of any and all magic he senses from Harry Potter.
That's Dumbledore reading Harry's mana level, not sensing whether Harry is casting spells.
I voted for the change, but I don't feel these are crucial changes... I think a clearer problem is that it is not obvious, until Harry actually does it, that he could cast Transfiguration on his own wand. Or cast spells on his wand in general, it's a bit like a gun shooting at itself.
I say more on this and propose an easy solution here. Chances are you've seen it and didn't agree, but saying just in case.
I would've had him transfigure a sliver of one of his fingernails, unless it has to be touching the tip of the wand.
Yeah, that would work too, as long as it had been established earlier in the story that it doesn't have to be the tip.
I'd like that slightly more, but such minor changes barely address the issue. Also, I am already suspecting that the way in which Harry will unparalyze himself after his improbable PT rampage is just going to involve some other unlikely feet.
Please don't change it. It's more than awesome enough as it is. Even if I did expect partial transfiguration to have some role, using the wand itself as raw material was tremendously surprising. For many people it will look too easy, but only with the benefit of hindsight.
Edited to add: some previous chapter should be modified to establish that transfiguration is indeed wordless.
Edited to add: I'm stupid. Chapter 15 says it is.
For what it's worth, I felt that Taylor's survival was much more believable than Harry's. Maybe that's because I knew in advance that Taylor's problems would not stop with defeating Coil? :-)
The climax and the reader reaction to it have been slightly better than I was expecting. I would certainly not complain about improvements, but there are probably better marginal returns elsewhere.
Me:
HPMOR:
Dammit.
Incidentally, did none of the death eaters have shields raised, or did the filaments pass through the shields?
Considering the only DE to raise shields also tried to kill LV and attempted to enlist the rest of them to join him...
The persona of LV might well have considered it a betrayal, to have their shields up around their lord. For why would you need them, if you were not plotting treachery?
Why raise shields, when they are instructed to hex Harry as soon as he raises his wand?
Wordless, quasi-invisible partial transfiguration is a power they know not, so they did not prepare for it.
Raise shields on general principles! There could be Aurors with invisibility cloaks or disillusioned nearby, enemies could suddenly appear by phoenix or some other method, there could be muggleborns with sniper rifles hidden a km away, someone could have travelled back in time to plant a bomb, one of the Death Eaters could be a traitor...
Mad-eye Moody would be disappointed.
EVER VIGILANT!
Which reminds me of something I noticed. Harry should have flooded the area with neurotoxin on general principles, because there might have been invisible Death Eaters.
So, Harry can only do potentially dangerous research if Hermione approves.
Consulting Hermione doesn't seem wise if she cannot protect her secrets. Does this mean Harry's research is on hold until she learns Occlumency?
How did Harry move the wires through the air with partial transfiguration alone? He doesn't have bugs to carry it like Skitter does. How does he prevent air currents from messing it up?
Harry can control the order of a transfiguration process, as seen in ch.104. Those are not threads floating freely in the air, they're part of a specific wire shape in the process of being transfigured. We also know that you can transfigure against tension.
Huh. Good answer. Totally forgot that, and I don't think I'm rare about this.
I wonder if there might have been a way to make that more memorable. 'cause at the time it's not really connected to anything, any dialogue or actions, Harry could have just as well been reading about how to clean fish tanks.
Reading the chapters again, I can't help feeling that, while Harry's sudden victory is satisfying from a "we, the fandom, have passed the test" perspective, without that context it is really unnatural. Harry abruptly goes from being utterly emotionally overwhelmed and reeling to the flawless, cold-blooded execution of a perfect plan that fully draws on a number of disparate ideas and abilities.
Edit: Also, I'm far from the first person to say this, but Harry's sudden spike in competence is preceded by Voldemort becoming a hammier, less intelligent villain. His precautions against Harry attempting to escape, and his plans for how to kill him reliably, are reasonably intelligent, but there are a dozen simpler and/or more effective countermeasures he could have taken, starting with something as obvious as getting rid of Harry's wand.
If there were more chapters left to go, I'd put money on "Voldemort let all this happen as part of a greater gambit", but as things stand I'm feeling pessimistic.
Take at least one.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. In most stories that involve a final conflict between a hero and a villain, none of those options apply. The villain is stronger, and is defeated through some combination of circumstances and advantages that allow the hero to bypass that strength or temporarily exceed it (typically through significant effort and/or sacrifice, often prior to the confrontation).
Right, that's what happened in this story: Harry temporarily got the upper hand on Voldemort. Voldemort allowed Harry to get the upper hand. When Voldemort possessed Quirrell's body, he didn't just take over the world over the course of a week. When Voldemort realized that Harry was an existential threat, he didn't relieve Harry of his limbs, mind, and freedom to move outside a little box. Voldemort allowed Harry to be a threat because otherwise there wouldn't have been a story.
The problem is that he did so in a way that feels inconsistent with the rest of the story. Most villains in most stories aren't the type that would relieve their nemesis of his limbs, mind, and freedom to move outside a little box. Sauron didn't seal off the Cracks of Doom, or even post a serious guard around them. The Emperor didn't place the shield generator on Endor in a hidden underground compound guarded by a small army. A great succession of villains have failed to just shoot James Bond. HPMOR!Voldemort would do all of those things, because from the start his extraordinarily high intelligence and skill at what he does have been cornerstones of his character. When he makes a mistake, many readers will assume (and have assumed, usually correctly) that it is a deliberate ploy. Mistakes as bad as what we're seeing here aren't just folly; they verge on character derailment.
As a simple matter of fact, Voldemort is stronger than Harry in basically every way, other than Harry's (incomplete) training in rationality. If Voldemort were a good enough planner, there's no way he could lose; he is smarter, more powerful, and has more ancient lore than any other wizard. If Voldemort were also rational, and didn't fall prey to overconfidence bias / planning fallacy...
Well, you can be as rational as you like, but if you are human and your opponent is a superintelligent god with a horde of bloodthirsty nanobots, the invincible Elder Lightsaber, and the One Thing to Rule Them All, then the story is going to read less like HPMOR, and more like:
Yup. So the solution is not to make your villain a superintelligent god with a horde of bloodthirsty nanobots, the invincible Elder Lightsaber, and the One Thing to Rule Them All to begin with. Eliezer took the risk of setting up an incredibly powerful villain, and it is to his credit as a writer that up until the very end he made us believe that he was capable of writing a satisfying resolution anyway.
Frankly, he still might. There are four chapters left, and Eliezer is nothing if not capable of surprising his audience. And as a Naruto fan, he might also have come across Bleach (another of the Big Three shounen series), and learned from its author already having made the exact same mistake.
Professor Quirrell will always be a step ahead of you, will always outwit you. You cannot beat him in any game.
That is the characterization of the Defense Professor. A story cannot start with "You can't beat the Professor Quirrell at any game" and end with "Professor Quirrell has lost the game" without a character break in between.
Is that what we've seen presented so far?
Dumbledore won during the Battle of the Three Armies. His assault on Azkaban would have gotten him killed (and more seriously, set back his efforts by years) for a stupid communication error, were Harry not willing to risk his own life and invent new magic to save the man. Hermoine outlasted several hours of the Defense Professor's most aggressive psychological attacks possible, using fairly basic deontology. His 'lesson plan' with Ma-Ha-Su in Chapter 16 was bluntly stupid, even if Harry hadn't used the easy way out. In Chapter 35, he fears that Harry has screwed over his plans because of voicing an obvious disagreement that Harry has repeatedly given privately before.
And that's before we get to the stupidity that was enforced by canon : testing multiple novel spells (Horcruxes, however he 'reformated' the young Harry Potter) without sufficient and verified safeties, the highly fractious Death Eaters, the lackluster war with Dumbledore.
Quirrellmort is smart. He thinks ahead. But his fundamental philosophy is still very restricted. As much as he tries to claim otherwise, he's running on distilled Command Push -- we'll note that no Death Eater gave him advice in this chapter, nor would we expect them to. His speech in Chapter 34 follows the same philosophy.
But more importantly, he underestimates risks. He's a partially-formed rationalist, who has heard of Kolmogorov complexity but can't quite understand why he should shut-up-and-multiply yet. He leaves Harry a wand because wanded Harry is only a threat because of that wand if he has a) wordless, b) motionless, c) wanded, d) magic that can instantly disable Death Eaters, e) can hit him at all and f) threatens an immortal. It's understandable to not think Harry is a risk. A full-grown wizard in the same environment wouldn't be a risk -- Dumbledore or Mad-Eye Moody would have died, and died quickly. That's not as unreasonable a mistake as you'd expect.
I think this is a great comment, but could you please expand on two points?
What are you talking about here?
And also
What does this mean?
In Chapter 16, Quirrelmort instructed the class in a very simple hex that caused a small amount of pain and no lasting harm called Ma-Ha-Su. He then selects three students, Hermoine, Draco, and Harry Potter, and then requires them to select a student and fire Ma-Ha-Su at them, taking Quirrel and later House points for non-compliance. The comparisons to the Millgram Experiments become explicit in chapter 63. Hermoine refuses, Draco fires on Hermoine, and Harry fires on himself.
Harry explicitly beats Quirrelmort's plans, here : "Yes, quite ingenious, but there was a lesson to be taught and you dodged it." It's not clear he ever gets the intended lesson, given that Quirrelmort seemed to intend to teach Harry to harm Draco on obedient command.
Interestingly, this could have not just failed but have gone horribly wrong for Quirrelmort, and he wouldn't have even understood why. One of the common responses to Millgram-like actions in the last few years of science fiction is to turn on the person giving illegal orders. Harry wouldn't do that because of his upbringing, but other possible Riddle-clones would wanted to fire Ma-Ha-Su on Quirrelmort and claimed he counted as a student -- and either required he flinch or dodge from a trivial spell, or risked publicly triggering the resonance that would have brought Dumbledore down on Quirrelmort's head. The man's not exactly been known for his happy subservience, after all.
Even without reaching that unlikely but disastrous possibility, 'success' would have had dramatically different results than Quirrelmort expected, given Quirrelmort's difficulty understanding what Harry was trying to do with Draco even at that point. Blunt, blunt stupidity.
Command Push is set of force philosophy where commanders give direct orders involving not only a mission's goal, but also its execution, tools, and specific tactics. It's very common historically, where communication is slow, or where the commander has much greater understanding of the field than individuals, but it's highly dependent on commander skill and knowledge, and very vulnerable to subterfuge. Quirrelmort is hugely prone to this, as are Harry Potter and (to a lesser extent) Draco.
This is usually contrasted with Recon Pull, Mission-type Tactics, or Command By Negation, where commanders provide goals, time constraints, and resources, but allow units to develop their own strategies to achieve those goals. This requires more training, faster communications technology, and higher levels of trust in subordinates (less so in Command By Negation, where you at least double-check with a commander), but puts more minds on a problem and can more readily adapt when lines of communication are cut or when situations on the ground change.
((Command Push and Recon Pull are video game terms from the Civilization series: different armies have different terms for these philosophies, usually subdivided into separate generations or divided by recent inspirations. Modern armies tend to use more modernized techniques derived from combinations of the two branches and further IT developments, though they'd not really be practicable in the time frame present here.))
That was very interesting, thanks.
I wondered the same thing. The only thing Google gave me that made sense in context was jargon from a Civilization wiki, meaning a style of military command where orders include implementation details: "here's the actions you need to take". The pitfalls of this style are that it places increased cognitive and communications load on the commander, that it can fail to account for local or changing conditions, and that it can lead to poor responsiveness under conditions of imperfect communication.
Current management theory (and, I believe, Western military doctrine, though I'm not an expert) favors objective-based orders: "here's the goal you need to accomplish". That leaves implementation details up to subordinates.
The term of art is mission-type tactics or mission command.
This makes a lot of sense, thank you. I see the parent comment to mine is right too, that this is Voldemort's political philosophy. Give me all the power, and then all of my values will be attained.
THANK YOU.
If you want a retcon that makes it actually reasonable to let Harry keep his wand, let's say that speaking Parseltongue only makes you tell the truth if you're also holding a wand at the same time. (Or that you can't speak it at all without it.)
...or character growth in the protagonist, theoretically.
That... sounds dangerously close to "did it because of Plot", which isn't supposed to happen in a rational story.
While I wouldn't go quite that far, I do agree with you on one thing: leaving Harry his wand was really stupid. Why did he let Harry keep his wand?
Let me have a go at coming up with a dozen:
That took me about 15-20 minutes.
I posted this as part of my review. I think it explains the wand thing. As so often happens in real life, we don't see the workings of mind that lead to every decisive factor in an outcome. In real life, we get to the end of a problem and often don't know why a particular mistake was made. ...
A small disturbance dwelt in my mind for these days, for I had concluded that Eliezer had already contrived a clever solution for Harry, sealed off all other such pathways, and that a strong indicator of what that contrived plan was, was that Voldemort left Harry with his wand after the Vow. Curious, that, oui? Voldemort specifically forbade Harry to raise his wand, and told his servants to attack him in a flurry of eclectic attacks, the mere thought of which would inevitably have an emotional effect on Harry, clouding his mental acuity. Since, Voldemort has in his consciousness that Harry has his wand, and has no reason to let him hold it, the clear explanation is that Eliezer could only think of a way for Harry to win if he had his wand, so he made Voldemort make a stupid mistake, it was the best he could do. Still quite good; I did not begrudge him it.
Since victory depends upon the wand, and Harry can't speak, the obvious answer is wordless, wand-based magic, the only such that Harry knows being transfiguration. Partial transfiguration. This also fits in with the heading of the first chapter, some very thin thing at night related to the sudden death of a great many people.
I notice I am confused.
Let me not be thought to brag, I grant it took me a solid 49 hours or so to so notice.
Voldemort just makes a stupid mistake? Eliezer just couldn't come up with anything better than Voldemort somehow losing by stupidly just letting the enemy have his wand, when that enemy can cause pain and death to his current form by casting magic on literally anything Voldemort has cast magic on?
At last I notice I am confused.
I re-conceptualize the matter at hand. We're going to assume one more time that Voldemort really isn't stupid, no matter how many times the terrible villain ALWAYS and FRUSTRATINGLY is. If there's anything to be learned from chapter 113, it's that Voldemort REALLY is doing it all on purpose, and a bloody, clever purpose 'e 'as, 'asn't 'e?
So. Voldemort obviously is aware of Harry having his wand. I WILL THEREFORE CONCLUDE! He wants Harry to have his wand. Why is that? It is not a mistake, it is a test. For Harry to submit when there is truly nothing to do, shows nothing. The evil are not good when only good they may choose, and the proud are not humble when only humiliation may they claim.
But! For Harry to submit, and this of his own free will, this despite his apparent Plot-Induced Loophole, this is a proof of his self-mastery, and of his rationality. For to submit for lack of spirit is not the same as to submit for the understanding of its ideal nature.
Voldemort shall ask Harry in Parseltongue at the end of their discussion if he tried trickery, if he concealed secrets. Only if Harry can answer no shall he show himself sufficiently impressed with the absolute dominance of Voldemort to be worth keeping around.
Harry shall disclose all secrets, I need not enumerate them specifically here. He shall at the end ask permission to drop his wand. ... All that being said, Voldemort probably really DOESN'T know about partial transfiguration. While we do need a plausible explanation for him not forcing Harry to rid himself of his wand after the Vow, so that Voldemort isn't stupid, we can still take advantage of his ignorance and pride. (The plan I gave involved exploding the DE's, not cutting them, disabling Voldemort's gun, not his hands, and neutralizing Voldemort by casting magic on everything Voldemort had affected, obelisks, Hermione, etc, forcing him by resonance to go snake form, to be kept there by having Harry's magicked cloth on the snake at all times so it couldn't transform without suffering from the resonance).
... Such was my review. As I consider the matter, transfiguration was the only wordless magic Harry knew, and without partial transfiguration, he could never have attained the wand contact with anything to transfigure. Was Voldemort really taking unnecessary risks, or is it reasonable to say that there was no danger to letting Harry keep his wand that Voldemort could reasonably have known about? Still, a thorough genius would have made sure, so there must have been at least some reason for which it was worth taking even an unimaginable risk, hence the reasoning given above.
If letting Harry have the wand is out of character as a mistake, but in character as a test, not only does that mean that letting him have the wand is a test, it also means that Harry should be able to figure out that letting him have the wand is a test. This ruins the usefulness of the test as a test.
I think there may be some hindsight bias here. We know that Harry has partial transfiguration and we know that it turns out poorly for LV. LV himself did not know these things. To the best of his knowledge (which he has good reason to believe is considerable and maybe exhaustive) there is no magic Harry can cast wordlessly with his wand down.
For LV to enact the additional precautions above, magic would be needed. He can't use magic on Harry, so taking them means reducing the size of the death eater guard by 1 or more during the time needed to take those precautions. If you don't know that Harry can do previously unknown to the world wandless magic, than that might actualy not seem like a good trade off.
Additionally, regardless of if trading 1 guard for additional precautions is actualy a good security trade, it is totaly in character that the kind of mind that created horcrux number 107 after allready having over a hundred redundant horcruxes would think the additional redundancy of guard 36 over guard 35 to be valuable.
But Voldemort does know that Harry can cast one particular type of wordless, wandless magic -- he knows it because he taught him. Harry can end transfigurations. And he still has his glasses. Can Voldemort sense transfigurations that Harry is maintaining? If not, Harry could have a piece of Scotch tape stuck someplace it wouldn't be noticed, or a booger hidden up his nose, or a capsule up his butt like a drug smuggler, or a tooth, or a fingernail, or a toenail, or...
If Voldemort can't sense Harry's transfigurations, he should be operating under the assumption that Harry has a capsule up his butt that he can excrete and untransfigure into a deus ex machina. He doesn't need his hands to end a transfiguration, and he doesn't need his hands to poop. (If you prefer it to be a tooth, say it's a tooth. That's what Voldemort did.)
Of course, Voldemort doesn't seem to be the sort of person who would do that. He goes through the motions of being careful, but constant vigilance is not one of his strong points. And that's not, narratively speaking, a character flaw: if you think everyone else is a stupid NPC, you're not going to see a point in paranoia.
He should've kicked himself in the face as soon as he taught Harry how to do that. But he's not the sort of person who would.
Also, Harry should start carrying some transfigured teeth. A gun, a knife, and a broomstick, maybe? But I think I'm not being paranoid enough.
I take your general point, but part of Voldemort's character as we have seen it is that he is Crazy Prepared, building in failsafes and backup options and safety margins well beyond the reasonable minimum. He is not merely capable of dealing with whatever challenges the narrative throws at him; he is comfortable, even leisurely, in the manner in which he deals with them.
I doubt the cost of temporarily reducing the Death Eater guard from 36 to 35 is greater than the benefit of a given precaution.
I don't understand this sentence. Would you mind rephrasing?
I'm with everyone else on the wand thing. It would have been simple enough to have him drop it. One narrative explanation for getting the wand back into Harry's hand would have been V asking for a demonstration of PT after Harry told him of it. Another would be to throw away the simplest timeline thing and let time-turned Harry come to the rescue with that solution, wand, cloak, etc. in hand. Though I don't know why V left him an hour on the time-turner either.
But:
My real confusion starts way before all of this. You have the idiot-child of prophesied destruction, and what you do not do is back him into a corner where he may decide to do something desperate. Making Harry feel threatened was a big risk to take with that prophecy.
V transforms into a super scary villain, putting Harry under massive duress, the exact kind of thing that would possibly cause him to destroy the world through time paradox or some other unknown power. It would have made more sense to bind him with an unbreakable vow long before then, to maintain the pretense of friendship throughout. So he guessed you're Voldemort, fine. Come clean, acknowledge what your plan to rule Britain was, and that you have been planning to place Harry as the ruler this time. Have that discussion. Come clean about the existence of a prophecy. Tell him you intend to resurrect Hermione. That you need to know what secret power he has so you can help him avoid the inadvertent destruction of the entire universe. Remind him of the centaur prophecy. Get him on your side that he is a serious risk to everyone. Brief the Death Eaters ahead of time, have a few that Harry doesn't know present out of uniform for a fake ritual of divination that supposedly requires him to be completely nude and holding no objects. At the agreed upon time in the ritual they all just AK him and Harry dies with his eyes wide going "Wait, WHAT?" and thinking you were his friend until the last.
V broadcasts his betrayal so far in advance, and that seems downright unsafe given what is at stake and what a giant question mark this boy is. You underestimate a 1st year, sure. But you don't underestimate a 1st year who is prophesied to destroy the stars and you, who you know has unknown powers.
I'm not hating though, EY. You're writing the story, not me. I know it's taken a lot of effort and I've enjoyed it immensely and I thank you for taking all of this time to write what has essentially been a free novel for all of us to consume and form a community around. I don't usually even think that hard about the fiction I read, but your story invites me to do so. It's been a great experience and I look forward to the finish.
Definitely worth saying. I know I'm being very critical in this thread, but that's largely because I'm so emotionally invested in this story, which in turn is because it's an extraordinarily good story.
I missed when writing this that there was the curse preventing V from killing H. But he still could have just let the centaur kill him. If the curse also stopped him from allowing the death of H then he still could have tried to get the Unbreakable Vow from Harry before making shit hit the fan.
He made a point to have Hermione alive in case Harry get out of the situation. It's no mistake that he doesn't.
Hmm... the blinding one is potentially interesting, if Harry partially-Transfigures himself eyeballs using the fact that his hand is touching the wand, and uses the Stone to make them permanent later... but he'd have to avoid Voldemort noticing that his eyes were back.
So he regains his eyesight and then notices that there's a black-painted bubble-head charm on him, just in case. x)
Voldie really should have gotten Moody as an advisor.
So, what's the probability that Harry returns to the Quidditch stands, checks his watch, and then snaps his fingers right before the explosion goes off?
Hopefully he doesn't--it'd suggest he was involved in the incident, which he would probably rather avoid--but I don't know if he has the emotional maturity to resist that opportunity.
He will return to the game, find it still in progress, and say something about people being incredibly... stubborn about winning, because looking onto his watch honestly, this should have ended an hour ago. THEN McGonagall will ask him if he would please snap his fingers.
Nit: Harry correctly guessing before this chapter that the resonance affects mainly the caster in proportion to the caster's strength seems overly specific. His experience did indicate that the resonance was a greater threat to V than to himself, so his actions were justified, but his prediction should have been more disjunctive: Either the resonance mainly affects the caster in proportion to the caster's strength, or it affects both parties in proportion to their strength, or it mainly affects V regardless of who casts what due to some asymmetry, or it affects the caster in proportion to the spell's magical strength, or something else.
Agreed. This result wasn't my first guess about the nature of it. I'd assumed that it probably affected V most strongly regardless.
Quirrel-supporters: don't worry, I'm sure Bellatrix will show up to save the day.
Looks like I had the right idea after all. I think strands of strong acid or a highly reactive alkaline metal would have been a safer tactic than the nano-wire garrotes, since Harry wouldn't need to spend the extra action to constrict, but apparently Eliezer had this planned out from chapter one and it was too late to change it (due to the silver line, black robes, etc).
What came after, though? Not quite as convincing for me. I can't believe that Harry was able to transfigure Voldemort despite the resonance cascade. I also am skeptical that Voldemort didn't have any passive shields up against stunners. And what the hell is harry even trying to do with this convoluted ploy with Hermione anyway? Hasn't he learned anything about trying overly-complicated plots?
I'd also be VERY concerned about Voldemort having backup memories stored in his horcruxes, especially since some of them are of the old fashioned personality blueprint kind.
I believe the resonance from transfiguration is shown to be very minor, for whatever reason.
When Harry has to transfigure Voldemort himself, not just contact him with transfigured material, it is only mildly uncomfortable.
It is not incomprehensible that a much, much lesser contact could escape any notice at all until at very close range.
Maybe some of the Death Eaters will leave ghosts behind, who will tell everyone what really happened.
Something that could indicate trying to dodge, or consciousness leaving the body. It's not unreasonable for Voldie to think "I've lost here, no matter what I do this body will be unusable in the near future, in case he has a plan to incapacitate me without triggering my Horcrux wards I'd better go someplace else".
All in all I'd assign a high subjective probability to Voldie's spirit being intact. Voldemort is a thorough planner, so total Oblivation is something he must have foreseen. And even if he did not, he is also known for not taking risks even when other people would be certain their precautions were enough. For example, he went through the trouble of resurrecting Hermione AND having Harry swear an Unbreakable Vow before attempting to kill him. Therefore, seeing something in his plan going terribly awry, there is a very high probability Voldemort would just retreat to a safe haven like the Horcrux Network.
We don’t know enough details about how the Horcrux Network and the Special Connection between V and H work, but …
… this is highly unusual for an obliviation, so I think it is very likely that V has not left his body.
Those are Tom Riddle's memories.
It is implied that while Voldemort can stop possessing a victim at will, he cannot stop inhabiting his own body at will.
[EDIT]Though Harry internally states the opposite:
This is the part I was thinking of:
There's a parallel between Dumbledore and Reddit's approach to the Ch. 113 solution: put a plethora of plots into motion, you only need one to work out.
Wow! Making Hermione Another-One-Who-Survived was a clever idea. This solves some problems, but now Harry will have to keep a very grim secret. With everything happened, the next honest talk with her seems now even more impossible than surviving V.
This is the real magic, when you see something impossible happening. I had no idea how you can realistically beat immortal and powerful dark wizard.One "Obliviate" and your perspective shifts and that's it. It now looks pretty simple despite being impossible 5 minutes ago.
We had a hint:
I feel stupid. Not for the nanowire, as I was among many who suggested something similar.
I feel stupid for not suggesting the "make Voldemort insane" strategy. I thought it will not work because a wizard's mental state is not necessarily connected to his brain. For example, an animagus transformed into a cat can still retain her human mental state with a cat's brain.
But being driven insane because of a curse might be completely different, and could have an effect not only on the physical brain, but on whatever shape or form the mental state of a wizard is implemented in.
I am starting to think that Lord Voldemort planned to commit suicide by proxy. Being without any personal aims, totally bored, without any happiness, surrounded by idiots, no chance of improvement - yet he cares about the world, at least somewhat, and realized that the original plan of playing chess with Harry would not alleviate his mood anymore anyway. And he has a better, happier and (age adjusted) more intelligent clone running around, so it is not like he will cease to exist altogether.
So he told Harry where to find Memory charms, prepared the plot, got the Stone (for Harry), made Harry take the Vow to keep his recklessness in limits, let him keep his wand and put him to the Final Exam.
The problem is that if he planned to be Obliviated, the plot was extremely complicated and relied on too many factors that could have gone wrong. So perhaps LV just threw the towel and said to himself, darn, let's Harry try whatever he can think about to do with us, and if he fails, well, it's not like I cannot try something else in some decades.
This would to some extent letting Harry keep his wand- he wants to have some fun after all, and Harry should be given a very limited chance to win. Not much, maybe strip him naked, surround him by armed killers and point a gun at his head, whilst giving him only a minute to think. But leave him his wand, and do give him the full 60 seconds, don't just kill him if he looks like he's stalling.
And now we really know why Harry had to carry around his father's rock. For practice:
So did Harry just outsmart himself? Are we really expecting the clever Lord Voldemort to not have something in place to recover from obliviation? Harry seemed to appropriately judge the importance of this spell about half a second after he first heard of it, but Tom Riddle doesn't realise at all?
I'm sure he realizes it, but Harry literally obliviated everything in his memory, which would presumably include knowledge of any anti-obliviation counter measures (like the signals that were mentioned early on).
Unless there's some spell or artifact we haven't heard of before now that blocks/reverses Obliviation, I am going with it worked. And from a meta perspective, we know the story is winding down, so Voldie coming back with his full memory and then having another showdown with a different solution seems highly unlikely.
There is an artifact that might suffice, the Pensieve. Voldemort might have prepared such an artifact with all his memories, and had Bellatrix and/or others ready to restore them to him by it if necessary.
But I grant the extreme difficulty Voldemort is likely to have having been transfigured into a ring. If necessary, Harry can always do with the ring what Voldemort did with the Horcruxes and ensure it is lost forever.
He can’t, unless he wants to visit one of the suggested hiding places several times a day:
(McGonagall, chapter 15)
He has the Philosopher's Stone. Not an issue.
That might, however, make him no longer retain his original form, so then he's seriously dead, and the horcruxes activate.
Possibly true; although I’m not sure whether Voldemort’s spirit would still stay inside the jewel once that transfiguration is made permanent. (Less of a problem now, thanks to the obliviation, but I’d still prefer some oversight, just to be safe.)
I agree with this interpretation. But given that, I'm not sure why Harry thinks he didn't kill Voldemort.
Why doesn't Harry resurrect the people he just killed, or at least freeze them? They don't have to die.
He's out of mana. Also, staying at the scene would be an enormous risk. Also, being death eaters, they would on average kill more than one person each.
Well, as a point of practicality, he's used up all his magic for at least the next hour and only has so many items in his first-aid kit.
He would need to wipe their memories first, one would assume; right now, the only witnesses to the scene remember nothing, and Harry (as an Occlumens) can pretend to not have knowledge of it.
Well, seems like we passed.
Passed in the first 30 seconds and then spent 60 hours worried that it can't be that easy.
I'm so disappointed that the Partial Transfiguration faction turned out to be correct.
Me too. I didn't say this a couple of days ago, owing to a lack of confidence that I now see to have been misguided; but while the nanowire PT solution is reasonable and effective and exactly the sort of thing that a sci-fi fan who fancies themselves clever would come up with, it's narratively shallow. And I can't see messily killing thirty-six people as in character for Harry at this moment, however much noise has been made about killing intent. Coming up with creative ways to kill people is one thing; actually going through with it in anger, or even thinking of it when faced with real hostility, is quite another.
(I'm also not totally sure it would work, but that depends on messy materials-science math that I can't be bothered with right now.)
Lest I be accused of being overly negative, though, the Obliviation bit does have a certain elegant symmetry to it.
Same here.
On the other hand, the description in chapter 114 read a lot nicer than all the suggestions that I read in the discussion thread on chapter 113. I guess there’s a difference between the bare-bones suggestion (which is clever, but unsatisfying) and the fully fleshed out story (which I found satisfying enough) and I did not think of this in my earlier comments. My apologies to everyone who got a doubtful response from me!
Thank Merlin they didn't listen to us and continued submitting PT solutions. :)
Shotgun plotting: sometimes one hit is all you need.
Yeah, this is one of those solutions that, had I been writing, I would have ruled as not actually workable. Takes too long, Voldemort or a Death Eater sees the threads and breaks them on general principles, nanotubes don't actually have enough tensile strength to reasonably slice up everybody at once consistently, and so forth. I pretty much filed any tactical violence plan under "not practical".
Still, not my story. It's not out of keeping with the rest of the stuff in HPMOR.
High odds that Voldemort escaped. He's been extraordinarily hammy this whole time, and he called all the Death Eaters together, killed or crippled a few, and then explained his evil scheme to the hero before giving him a countdown to his inevitable death, while leaving him armed. It seems very plausible that Tom Riddle was tired of Lord Voldemort, and decided to retire him via dramatic massacre. Why make his new body a snaky freak-show, after all?
On the pedantic nitpicker trivia side of things, you don't have a tank of "oxyacetelene". An oxy-acetylene rig uses a tank of oxygen, and a tank of acetylene. But Harry is probably not a welder, and neither are the Weasely twins, so nobody involved was equipped to notice the problem.
The volume of the transfiguration makes it negligibly quick; nanotubes have the highest tensile strength of any material and they were not lone tubes, but braided; I'm fairly sure spotting a braided nanowire in the dark is nearly impossible; and the tension transfiguration is what made the slicing consistent. How exactly is it not practical?
That's why you have multiple tactical violence plans running at the same time. Mine had neurotoxin and jets of fluorine. Also, Harry could transfigure a flashbang if he gets noticed, and he reinforces his body with carbon nanotubes for in case he gets shot.
We know for a fact that the Hogwarts wards do not raise an alarm when they should, because they did not detect Draco being under a Blood-Cooling Charm. And we also know that Voldie had a better idea regarding those wards (whether he actually had said wards in place around Draco is debatable, but still, he had the idea).
So I think it's extremely probable that the wards he has to detect his own death are more efficient than the Hogwarts wards, and he's currently riding Bella's body and kicking himself for once more not having just used Avada Kedavra.
Or he and Bella are kicking back on a beach in the Caribbean, drinking alcohol from coconuts and murdering anyone who plays loud music nearby or fails to clean up after their dogs.
Rematch in twenty years.
Yeah. I really hoped Eliezer would go for a pure verbal solution. Something like what I proposed, but smarter.
Wow, I was expecting more of a pure Talking His Way Out of the Box solution, instead of a partial transfiguration solution. I'm curious as to whether or not this is the bad ending. I do think Voldemort was a bit stupid to not just kill Harry instantly instead of quizzing him for the Powers He Knows Not. As he said himself, given an eternity of immortality it is likely he would stumble across everything Harry has read, thought, and figured out.
Next chapter should be up any minute now...
Edit: It's up.
Even if this was the good ending I want to see the bad ending.
I would pay for Eliezer to write about the first Tom Riddle's experience under the Sorting Hat, before he had given up on being good, convincing the hat that he wouldn't go bad, etc.
"Other living weapons cannot be Transfigured; they will not survive the disenchantment for the requisite six hours to avoid being traced by Time-Turner."
So, how does Harry plan to evade been traced by Time-Turner?
Is it correct that Voldemort will die when he will be disenchanted?
By the way, why did Voldemort make a description of Hermione resurrection ritual and put it in a pouch if he planed to kill Harry anyway?
Well, seeing as he was almost prophesied to fail, it was sensible to make sure Harry would have someone to stop him in the future. And as it turns out, this was a very good idea.
He was planning for the possibility of failure. If he failed to kill Harry, he wanted Harry to always have Hermione to consult.
There are a lot of theories over at fanfiction.net that Harry is inside the Mirror, seeing what he wants to see.
I considered this possibility back when we were searching for Harry's solution, and found that Voldemort uses the same hand for wand and gun before and after the Mirror. I thought: If they are in the Mirror, Eliezer would have subtly indicated that, perhaps Voldemort's use of hands would be reversed since the Mirror.
Does this qualify as sufficient proof that Harry and Voldemort are not in the Mirror?
Two things strike me as odd that I don't seem to have seen yet in other comments (but I might have missed them).
How could the "torture" option work ? From my understanding, if Voldemort gains consciousness again, he can leave his body. And you can't torture someone who is unconscious. The wand in Azkaban pit could work, but the "call Moody to torture Voldemort" option I really don't see how it could work.
How can it be so easy to Obliviate Voldemort ? Can't perfect Occlumens protect themselves from mind-altering spells even when unconscious ? Everyone needs to sleep. If you can just Obliviate even the most powerful Occlumens so easily, why didn't either Voldemort or the Order (Moody or Dumbledore) think about it and use that trick massively ?
I've seen it suggested that V can leave a possessed body (becoming a disembodied spirit) but not his own. I don't recall seeing anything (either in canon or in HPMOR) that confirms or refutes that.
I share your concerns about #2, although generally "once you have physical access to the hardware, it's over" -- if you can catch Voldemort or Dumbledore or whoever asleep, you can smash their head with a big rock or something.
I think the solution was over-constrained. Simultaneously killing 36 death eaters, disarming (hah) Voldemort, and then stunning him wasn't just A way out of the predicament without dying immediately, it's arguably the BEST way. All the limitations Voldemort put on Harry were irrelevant, and all the relevant ones that could've happened, like taking away his wand or shooting him in the kneecaps before he talks weren't taken. Voldemort forces Harry to use his ONE ability he can use without moving his wand, which also happens to be the one that can nearly effortlessly kill dozens of people in an instant? I guess when you look at it has him falling to the power he knew not it kind of works.
So... Quirrel told McGonagal that he was David Munroe, and it was implied with Madam Bones. It looks like David Munroe was killed in a battle with Voldemort, ending that noble and most ancient line, which has now been avenged by Hermione destroying Voldemort with her magic Girl-Who-Lived powers.
Are we going to get the Noble House of Granger? Does the House of Potter lose its noble status since David Munroe was apparently not previously dead to be avenged by Harry? Will they both be noble because the Wizengamot doesn't know what to do with the ambiguity?
Voldemort still killed David Monroe, he just did it earlier than everyone thought he did. Chapter 108:
Your other questions remain, though. Harry no longer killed Voldemort for good, and Hermione (apparently) has. This should be interesting. I predict this becomes an issue, confidence 70%; and, conditional on that, that Draco sides with Hermione again at a crucial moment, confidence 85%.
I wonder if it would be possible to erase most of Voldemort, but keep the Quirrel mask personality through some combination of Memory Charms, Obliviation and Legilimency. He was a pretty cool teacher, after all, when not murdering the students and whatnot. Using the Stone, it would be even possible to give him a permanently-transfugured Quirrel body, so that the students don't get scared of Voldie teaching them...
R.I.P Quirrelmort, we shall miss you...
I love how close we collectively got. Both that we came up with a solution close to the canon one, and that the canon one was just that bit more polished and elegant thanks to longer prep time.
Well done Eliezer!
I have read lots and lots of 'partial transfiguration' solutions over the past few days. I didn't really like them, they seemed artificial, unrealistic.
But somehow when you told the solution, it didn't feel artificial at all. It felt like it made sense. And I really liked the way Harry stalled for time as well. A few very nice tricks there.
I'm not sure why Harry went through all the trouble of covering up his involvement though. Is there a reason he doesn't want to to take the credit? Is he afraid it will give away the secret of partial transfiguration? Or perhaps he doesn't want Draco to know he, presumably, killed Lucius? I guess we'll find out tomorrow ;)
The way he set it up gives Hermione the same credit for defeating Voldemort that Harry got when he was a baby.
... which conveniently explains why Hermione has super powers now.
So the Sunshine Regiment gets a Super-Hermione after all.
Chaos General gets the Stone, Sunshine General gets superpowers, Dragon General gets No Parents.
So each of them gets more of something they already had.
Not even something original. General Chaos already got that Achievement before him.
General Chaos would firmly disagree.
Only if Achievements can be revoked. He definitely had that for a short while 11 years earlier.
Nope. He has four parents only two of whom happen to be dead.
If you count Quirrell, he has five parents, two and a half of whom happen to be dead. In fact, the half-death of Quirrell brought his Parental Survival Rate down to 0.5, so of course Draco's had to go down to stay ahead of him.
Quirrel was his fiance, not his parent.
They were as close to being soul mates as two humans can possibly be.
Oh, right, him and the time turner.
I was extremely disappointed by these chapters, enough so that I would prefer the shorter and sadder ending. Various things that seem to me wrong with it:
Harry's plan is the kind of complicated plan that would not really work, because of unknown constraints on magic, constraints on his concentration and imagination, either his magic or the strands themselves being noticed by Voldemort, or for some other reason.
Voldemort is left holding the Idiot Ball, which Eliezer promised would not happen, because he left Harry with his wand and glasses for no reason, as well as committing many other blunders that allowed all this.
Harry would not really think of such a plan, giving the way he was thinking in the earlier chapters (Eliezer essentially concedes this by saying that if the readers can think of it, "Harry is allowed to think of it" even though this is not realistic.)
It does not really fit with the rest of the story, even given the foreshadows such as Dumbledore saying that partial transfiguration might be the power the Dark Lord knows not and so on.
Harry has probably broken his Unbreakable Vow, since he does not know how prophecy works sufficiently to say for sure that preserving his life in this way is not putting the world in more risk. At least he would need to consult with Hermione before putting such a plan into action.
Total obliviation is a fate worse than death, and given that obliviation is a fairly well known and low-level spell, powerful wizards would surely have some kind of anti-obliviation wards that would prevent it from working on them.
The chapters do not make sufficient use of the Unbreakable Vow. Even without forcing positive actions, this particular Vow would almost certainly have much larger effects on Harry's actions (such as preventing the whole plan without consulting Hermione). Basically those who used the "HarryPrime" terminology are probably correct.
Now I want to see the bad ending, so that mentally I can make it the official one.
Heh. That's what I do with Three Worlds Collide.
Actually, that's not really true. I count the official ending as the true ending; it's more like humans to behave thus. I just count the other ending as the good ending.
I'm so cross with Voldemort! How could he have possibly left Harry with the wand? How could he? It's the exact sort of mistake he obviously wouldn't make, especially since he already demanded Harry's wand several times already. How could he have left Harry with an hour on the time-turner? The game was going to last all night, it would have been so easy just to use up all the hours. Why did he wait for last words? See points 14 and 16 on the supervillain list: NO last requests, NO last words. It's all so weird and uncharacteristically unlike him!
One can network computers in such a way that computations, online services (web site), and/or stored information (databases, files) keep running seamlessly even after some nodes are crashed/destroyed/hacked. Certainly you would not design a decent AI whose mind had a potential single point of hardware failure like humans do with their brains. Shouldn't a wizard's True Horcrux network similarly be resilient against any active body(ies) being Obliviated, Imperiussed, etc.?
That assumes a great deal of control over the design of the network. We don't know what steps Voldemort followed to design the Horcrux 2.0 ritual, but I don't think it implausible that the final result was the best he could do with the knowledge available, rather than the best an intelligent programmer could do with full control over the system's hardware and code.
Waiting for the other foot to drop because, as I'm sure the comments are full of, it is completely absurd that a wizard as powerful as ~Lord Voldemort~ is incapable of detecting a transfigured spidersilk looping its way around him and his followers regardless of his unawareness of partial transfiguration.
It's still magic.
Wizards are not blind to magic around them created by methods they are unaware of. The patronus charm 2.0 was still noticeable by Quirrel and Dumbledore. When Harry demonstrated partial transfiguration, Dumbledore and McGonagall were surprised both by the effect itself and by how similar it appeared to normal transfiguration - "He simply Transfigured a part of the subject without Transfiguring the whole..."
I don't think wizards can detect magic that easily. Patronus is definitely easy to detect, it radiates both in visible light and in... emotional waves, whatever that is ;)
But think about how it's hard to detect someone who is polyjuiced, or someone who is imperiused. Or how Dumbledore had to cast spells to detect what transfigured objects did Harry has on him when he looked for Hermione body.
It seems perfectly plausible that wizards can't detect (without actively casting some detection spells) a transfiguration that happens on the microscopic scale and can't see.
I am assuming that Voldemort, about to attempt the subversion of a prophecy to destroy the world, is not standing around in a graveyard with Harry Potter, a recently reanimated Hermione with unicorn powers and a bunch of Death Eaters of at least slightly questionable loyalty without any detection spells raised at all.
I woke up in the middle of the night with an idea that could still be true, but wasn't needed in Chapter 114-115. It had bothered me that the Hermione toe-ring wasn't detected. In fact, it was explicitly checked for magic and it was discovered that it was portkey magic rather than transfiguration magic.
Overnight, I had the idea that perhaps Harry put his portkey toering on Hermione's body (though obviously not her toe) before he transfigured her. I have no idea how such things work, but I suppose its possible that the portkey magic would still be detectible when transfigured and would even mask out the transfiguration magic.
From chapter 94 :
I assume that he swapped the Hermione-toering with the portkey-toering at this point, leaving the Hermione-toering beneath the covers, or making it drop into the moleskin pouch, or something like that.
I am somewhat surprised that no wards triggered on any of Harrys actions. OK, we learned little about what wards can and can't do but given that ant-apparition, anti-phoenix and whatnot are established by Death Eaters by default and Quirrell used - what 50? - protective measures in that secret hotel room when he left off for Azkaban. I'd guess that some protective measures should have triggered.
So I decided not too look at comments during the hunt. I then got a "solution", but decided to wait a bit for something better to post it. And then I did not have time to post it. Well, silly me...
Anyway, because I have not seen this discussed (but maybe it was and I missed it?), here's my take on defending yourself from most ways to kill you. Note that this would not have worked for Harry for various reasons (as I said, my solution was unsatisfying), but I still think it could be debated.
Fact 1: Killing Curses cannot be blocked by magic or material shields Fact 2: Killing Curses can be dodged Fact 3: Dark Wizards don't go around murdering people from far away by just casting Killing Curses in their general direction.
From this I deduce that it is very plausible that any legal target from a Killing Curse absorbs its entirety. Therefore, since it can kill anything with a brain, pulling a Skitter and coating your skin in a layer of insects should do the trick. Harry could transfigure himself a platinum armor (against bullets and similar things) and an armor of insects.
The main problem I see with this idea in the context of Chapter 113 is that any DE can just Finite Incantem Harry's Magic. So it's a strategy better suited to epic-level wizards who have stronger magic than first-years at Hogwarts. Also, I thought it was too ambitious a PT fro 60 seconds, but then Harry did manage to stall successfully.
I am glad to see that Stuporfy did the trick, and I did not see the Obliviate coming. My private (i.e. I would have posted it if I had more time/attention for HPMOR over the last two days and had vetted it) way to solve the Voldemort Problem would have been to time-turn him the violent way by shattering Harry's Time-Turner on him; but looking into it now it turns out I misremembered the scene of canon I was thinking of. (The shelf containing the Time-Turners gets bumped, and they all fall off, turning them- causing them to go back in time and fall again; I thought I remembered someone getting trapped in it. Perhaps that was an embellishment in the movie?)
I am not sure Harry has thought through what will happen to Voldemort. Will he be imprisoned? Killed? It seems like getting the person most likely to imprison him someplace other than Azkaban to be first on the scene is a better idea than just causing an explosion to attract interest.
But now Hermione gets to be The Girl Who Lived Again.
If I understand him correctly, H intends to keep V transformed until H is powerful enough to transform V’s body back to a healthy state (and make that permanent with the Stone).
Imprisonment is a possibility after that, but depending on your views on the relation between identity and memories, this might not be appropriate after the obliviation.
Interesting. I wonder ifHarry just killed Sirius. I suppose that's not exactly the most important thing from a shut-up-and-multiply perspective, but it might also explain an additional reason why Harry avoids looking (and finding information about) something he may change later with the use of a time turner.
Also, no reference to a certain pack of cards yet.
Mr. Counsel is probably Lucius Malfoy, too. I imagine Draco's not going to be too happy about that.
I am surprised that using transfiguration and defeating Voldemort played such a large role in the solution.
I thought that it was much more likely that the solution would be to lose in some way, but to lose in a way that maintained hope / constrained Voldemort's actions to not be evil, and then to continue to work towards a better situation once out of immediate danger.
I also thought that the Vow that Harry had made would be the biggest key to the solution. After all, transfiguring carbon nanotubes and antimatter were things that Harry could have achieved earlier to defeat Voldemort, prior to the situation having gotten truly terrible. (He couldve done what he did to stun and obliviate Voldemort this during the entire forbidden corridor storyline). Therefore, it made sense to me that the new addition of the Vow would be critical to the solution, not just something throw in to stall for time.
Anyways, I am glad that the community collectively came up with all of the elements of the final solution as it was written.
Where is Fawkes right now? Is he part of Dumbledore and is trapped with him?
Harry should be treating himself for transfiguration sickness right now. He breathed some strange smells, and having a death eater poison the air is exactly the sort of contingency Voldemort should have taken.
Also, he doesn't seem to have paid any attention to where the Philosopher's Stone is. Which seems like a huge mistake.
(Edit: Reread, and noticed it says "Harry donned his robes, and placed the Stone of Permanency in an ordinary pocket, he wasn't sure what the Stone might do to his pouch." Retract previous sentence.)
The reason you didn't see the Philosopher's Stone in your first read is that it wasn't there. Eliezer accidentally dropped it in one of his edits, and put it back in after Reddit was all "Where's the Stone?!"
The strange smells are described as “coppery smells”, which probably refers to all the blood.
(Of course, the hemoglobin in blood contains iron, rather than copper, but “irony smells” would not be a great choice of words, I suppose …)
I think Harry went with a slightly more risky PT solution than the one I suggested, but it's satisfying and considerably more in character than the PT => time turner escape solution path.
I suppose if I thought more narratively I would have discarded every solution that didn't involve killing his enemies.
I really can't believe "use magic" was the right answer. In addition to being unsolvable from the perspective of the audience -- we don't know anything about magic! -- it's also totally out of step of the rest of the work. I'd love to see a rewrite fork from the "AI Box" line of solutions.
In the meantime I really hope they're still in the mirror.
Um, what do you mean by "unsolvable"? I would assume you mean "no one thought of it or suggested it," but in fact many, if not most, of the suggestions involved using magic in basically the way Harry did.
I assume he means: we are not in a position to have any confidence that a particular proposed magical solution is actually a credible one, at least from what we know that's internal to the story. (External things like what's been most clearly foreshadowed might give good reason for confidence.)
That's exactly what I mean. We don't know enough about magic to say what Harry or Voldemort's capabilities are -- the whole thing is a black box. It's not a satisfying answer to the puzzle (for me) and not much of a testimony to "rationality" as a way of thinking at all -- as presented this is about knowing genre conventions, not about superior or inferior thinking. All of the AI Box solutions I saw were much more pro-"rationality" by my lights.
Eliezer may in fact be thinking of this as an AI box situation, and trying to point out that giving the AI any extra capabilities in the external world whatsoever me be a horrible mistake.
That said, I agree with you.
Count me in the "I'm surprised that actually worked" camp...
So why is Harry going to such great pains to erase evidence of his involvement?
Hmm, if it was known that Dumbledore had died and that Quirrell had been Voldemort all year, bad things could happen to Hogwarts. This route makes it most like that it will be McGonagall as headmistress.
Dumbledore is not dead, just stuck in time. Maybe.
Can't Harry get the time turner messaging squad to give Dumbledore advance notice of everything that will occur, so that he can set the mirror trap to be not so much of a trap?
Dumbledore did seem to be very insistent on how Quirrell had fooled him and he had no idea whatsoever that Quirrell was Voldemort.
They're going to have to reveal Dumbledore's death anyway, and Quirrell =/= Voldemort would be the default assumption for any uninitiated observer anyway, seeing as their dead bodies were within metres of each other.
To me, the scene looked as though Quirrell had tried to fight Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Perhaps the story is that Quirrell killed the Death Eaters, Voldy killed quirrell, tried to sacrifice Hermione in a dark ritual, but Hermione's purity killed him.
Or cut that last step, and make it that Harry snapped his fingers.
Imagine the the myths that will come up around this. "Man, if you try to use magic to kill a kid magic will fuck you up, I don't care who you are."
Because it's hard to be seen as on the light side when you decapitate 38 adult wizards in an instant? Fame is harmful, not helpful, to Harry's goals. Better to make it look like Voldemort managed to cause a magical backfire that killed all his minions in a failed ritual involving Hermione. To go back to the Azkaban chapters, the perfect crime is the one that is declared a tragic accident and closed.
I didn't really check the LessWrong thread earlier, but I am happy to see that people here are a lot less willing to accept the unsatisfying solution than at r/HPMOR.
I used to really enjoy HPMOR, but it is now basically ruined for me - Voldemort holding the idiot ball, the one time where things really matter, and this is also when Harry's untested strategies work like a charm on the first try without him being noticed? I guess I was too quick to praise Eliezer on being able to write more believable scenes than Rowling.
What disappoints me almost as much is that the original answer was (from all that I can gather) to mainly just use the swerving hex. Hahahaha.
I'm pretty sure the original answer always had the partial transfiguration / nanotubes / garotte element. Consider the bit at the very start of chapter 1 (fraction of a line, robes falling, blood); the fact that in H&H's transfiguration experiments they use nanowires, verify that they're very strong, and verify that their length can be changed by transfiguration; arguably the bit in chapter 7 where Harry thinks what a good idea it would be just to decapitate all the Death Eaters; Dumbledore's insistence that partial transfiguration, being a power the Dark Lord knows not, may be vital to his victory.
While I am inclined to agree with the general spirit of your comment, I think you're being a little harsh. This is still miles more believable than much of Rowling's work. For one thing, recall that her Voldemort achieved the same terrifying results during the Wizarding War while being an idiot all the time.
Yes HPMOR has been generally more believable, except for the one scene that matters in the whole book. At any rate, I am not sure if defeating Voldemort by use of an artefact - the Elder Wand is any less believable than using transfigured nanowires in secret against a much smarter version of Voldemort who forgets to use shields/wards/attention in order to catch harry this one time, and lets him have his wand when he doesn't need it.