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JonahSinick comments on Is Scott Alexander bad at math? - Less Wrong
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I feel like we could have a more productive discussion on this in another format (maybe a Hangout sometime this weekend?), but for now a short comment (that might take years to unpack):
I have found that the word "should" is dangerous, and that any time one uses it, one could benefit from contemplation on the underlying belief.
I am intentionally speaking high handedly here. I spent years being suicidal because people pathologized me when I was doing what I was doing to help people. I received so many accusations of disingenuousness and arrogance that I involuntarily internalized them, and it caused me unthinkable psychological damage. I'm not going to give weight such accusations anymore.
I can take the perspective that the people who accuse me of disingenuousness or arrogance are evil, or I can take the perspective that I'm morally sophisticated than they are out of virtue of being privileged. I've chosen the latter. In exchange, I'm committed to striving for moral purity.
Ok, look, I get that you are trying hard to be a good person, and that's great, but you're not doing such a great job of it right now. And I think that's kind of the crux here: You've somehow gotten the idea that being a Good Person automatically makes you good at it, or should, whatever that means.
You say that you like helping people. I identify with that. I like helping people too. But all that really tells you is how I get my jollies, you know? Other people are not obliged to give me said jollies by being helped, and they may have good reasons not to. Here are some possible reasons:
Now, you may think some of these reasons are mistaken or irrational (I think any of them might be perfectly sane, myself), but the fact remains that people are quite possibly going to have these concerns, and if I can't address them, I will not be a very good helper. Notice that none of these reasons is "They fail to empathize with me and understand how happy I would be to help them," which is the only concern I see you trying to address here. Why should they care how happy it will make me?
Humility gets a bad rap on LW, but I think in this case it's exactly what's needed, because if you want to help people properly, you've got to remember that helping isn't about you. You have to respect their goals and their autonomy, all the more if they really do need your help and you are in a position of power over them. Love is great and all, but it's not something you ought to force on anyone.
Dude, I apologize for sounding hostile in the above comment. I'm not here just to give you hard time. And, believe it or not, nor are Lumifer or other LWers, who seem hostile to you. At least I personally have no qualms with your math qualifications, desire to help people or whatever. That's not the point at all.
If you feel suicidal right now, or even depressed, seek psychotherapeutical help immediately. It's one thing to come across as dick to random people on the Internet or being socially inept. It's another to endure serious psychological suffering. I'm not fucking ironic at all.
Again, I'm sorry if I made you feel any bad, but I don't feel capable to convey my message across without giving your bad feelings. Just my advice, don't take things on LW personal, nobody's here after you.
Things have changed. I finally got over it over the past 24 months, and feel so much better now. I'm just offering explanation for where my apparently aloof tone is coming from – it may seem disrespectful, but it's actually what I need to be mentally healthy: I need to be able to be open about who I am and totally discount people's reactions when they're angry and hostile in response.
For so many years, the egalitarian pressures were suffocating. The irony is that my experience probably actually has a great deal in common with the experience of many LWers on account of being smarter than others earlier on in life – mine is in the same direction, only more extreme. And I couldn't find kindred spirits even here: people who were ok with me being smart and thoughtful even when it signaled superiority in a way that would result in social backlash from mainstream society.
To the extent that I'm dismissive, that's why. A sense of the type "these people aren't on my side, they're in the same reference class as the women who construed me giving them interesting math books as an attempt to coercively obtain sexual favors, when the actual situation was that I was starved for intellectual companionship, and mistakenly thought that they were the same as me and would be happy to have someone to talk to."
I can't talk about other people reacting to you that way, but I can talk about me. My point is, I have zero qualms with your math qualifications, desire to help people, certain philosophical beliefs, or whatever. Moreover, I have zero qualms with you saying you're better than other people, because everybody secretly thinks they are better than other people. That's not the point, people (or at least I personally) have problems with completely different things, and you seem to not get it completely, no matter how people try to explain that.
The problem is: you infer completely wrong things from people's feedback, and that even might be the reason of your previous suicidal tendencies. I don't know how many times you need to be reminded, but LWers are OK (completely!) with you being smart in math, or having original insight, or even coming across as feeling superior.
We read frigging Yudkowsky after all! The guy works on arcane mathy subjects, wrote a shitload of articles, constantly advocates socially weird beliefs (and even accuses other people and society of being weird themselves!), and sometimes uses phraseology that can be construed as smugness and superiority. And let's be honest: even if you're better than him at math (I can't judge), Yudkowsky is bigger than you. He created LessWrong, and who the hell are you?
Yet I have zero problems with Yudkowsky. My point is: I wrote my first comment to you not because I'm upset with your actual achievements or the way you present them.
See, that's the first thing you inferred wrong. I'm not upset. You're just some guy, who failed massively at social communication, so I wanted to point it out, but I was unsuccessful. I'll try again. I'll post some random opinions that you really need to ponder on before dismissing them out of hand.
You said in another comment that you're willing to read good-intentioned criticism with great interest. Here it is. I can elaborate any point. Oh, and Crocker's rules, you can tell me whatever the hell you want.
I find it funny that I'm finally getting the feedback that I needed 25 years ago, from so many people at once. See here and here: over the past ~6 months, I finally started to get it.
Thanks very much for your comment, I appreciate the time that you put into it. The points that you make have largely been made already by other commenters, and I feel a little bit sheepish that you went through so much effort, but I might find your framing of things to be helpful at the margin, even on reflection.
YES YES YES.
I LOVE when things like this happen.
If you find that something is suddenly happening a lot, probably it was always happening and you never noticed. Particularly if it is something that is easy to misinterpret, like advice.