Vaniver comments on Sapiens - Less Wrong
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Comments (12)
Firstly, I think you mean "strictly more fit". Secondly, I don't think fictions evolved because they were socially useful.
(For one thing, this presupposes that no priest of Zeus ever really believed that thunderstorms came by the hand of a god.)
Given what I've read about causal modeling, I don't think you can actually make a cognitive algorithm which assigns probability 1.0 to the truth and 0.0 to all fictions. In fact, I think that you really can't model the world causally, the better to anticipate it and interact with it, without computing plausible counterfactuals. While I really don't know if Harari knew this much, I am already disappointed that cynicism about societies is being used to explain a phenomenon which plain cognitive necessity explains just fine.
Well of course they do! How else does anyone expect them to function? I mean, yes, occasionally you get an institution functioning on the basis of an idea that's actually true, but "institutions are corporeal forms given by masses of people to ideas" is a fairly standard observation in anthropology.
I wish to officially Find It Curious that everyone believes, with little evidence in view, that cultures always gain power by suppressing individual humans and their happiness. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't, but I don't expect to see a universal sociological Law of Decreasing Happiness.
I also think that similarly to "archetypical figure of the modern world", the phrase "strikes most moderns/people with horror" should be stricken from the record as mostly useless. Not only will you often find a noticeable percentage of real people simply fail to be horrified by what you think ought to horrify them, and not only will a substantial portion of the population signal horror that they don't really feel, but lots and lots of "horrible" things are only horrible when novelists are beating you over the head with the Horror Stick, rather than when you reflect on actually living with them.
I mean, just to give an example, there are lots of "moderns", ie: real people, right now, who are really and truly horrified at the prospect that the government will make them get their children vaccinated. Speaking from a factual basis, of course, those people are delusional nutjobs, and vaccinations are a good idea.
Why is that surprising? Do you think life forms would come to exist in a universe of infinite random chaos?
Not at all. Every time you try to reduce suffering and wickedness, and increase happiness and companionability instead, three soccer moms, two McCarthyist film-makers, and one blogger from a certain group scream in the aforementioned existential horror. Once you've spotted that state-reward association learners will tend to consider themselves islands of candlelight in a sea of darkness regardless of their objective well-being, their Anti-Spiral tendencies become unsurprising.
Oh, great, so he's scared. Is he doing something about it?
Really? Like what? And why am I being asked to elevate my ancestors' extremely limited imaginative capacities to a moral guide, rather than using actual possibility as my guide?
Of course, most people who actually believe in business-as-usual expect that "the Singularity" for "rationalists" will turn out rather like "the Revolution" did for "Marxists", or possibly even like "the Rapture" did for "Christians".
How many of those were there? I generally prefer a book that is willing to take human life seriously rather than trying to elevate itself to "objectivity" by pretending to have a View From Mars. Besides, in the real View From Mars, humanity will only become relevant to the story of Earth when we manage to acquire more total biomass than the plants, insects, and bacteria put together -- we're a footnote right now, albeit one increasing its capacities at an interestingly high rate.
I'll just go find something else then.
Indeed, fixed. Thanks for pointing that out!
It does not presuppose that. By "fiction," he's talking about a class of claims removed from reality by some significant number of conceptual steps. A monkey saying "ground threat nearby!" is roughly one conceptual step away from sensory perceptions, but a person saying "Epimenides is a priest of Zeus" is some large number of conceptual steps away from sensory perceptions.
Whether or not those claims are "really believed" is different. A monkey can falsely cry "ground threat nearby!" to cause another monkey to flee, allowing the first monkey to eat food the second monkey discovered. That's communication that the communicator does not believe--but that's not what Harari means by 'fiction.' Both Epimenides and I can believe that he's a priest of Zeus; he can really believe that Zeus is the cause of thunderstorms because of long-standing tradition, and I can believe that thunderstorms are caused by moisture, unstable air, and lift because that's what Wikipedia says.
I think I now understand what you're saying Harari means by "fiction", but I still think that's an abuse of the word, at least in present-day English. Zeus is not only different from direct sensory experience, but also from scientific explanations, yes. But he's also, and this is the key distinction usually wrapped up in the word "fiction", very different from Harry Potter.
See legal fiction. I agree that it's not the word I would have chosen for it: something like "constructed fact" as opposed to "measured fact" seems like a cleaner distinction, but is longer to type.
If you dislike the way Harari abuses terms for myth, you're going to really dislike the way he abuses "religion". His definition is a very reductive "a system of human norms and values that is founded on a belief in a superhuman order". He also has a very reductive, non-theistic sense of Buddhism. He observes that Buddhism is considered a religion, so he overextends his sense of religion until it encompasses all political philosophies
Wittgenstein would kick his ass over these abuses.