VoiceOfRa comments on Stupid Questions May 2015 - Less Wrong

10 Post author: Gondolinian 01 May 2015 05:28PM

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Comment author: VoiceOfRa 07 July 2015 01:32:51AM 2 points [-]

You got downvoted for having a contrarian view that was also badly expressed. I have neutralised. (try to express it clearer or more delicately in the future)

Down voted for concern trolling. (And no I don't care about a single down vote.)

I am sorry; I don't understand this sentence, was there perhaps a spelling error?

Fixed. I changed the grammar of that sentence several times as I was editing.

I can see what you are saying that it burdens everyone else to go along with the decisions of a person to make choices that are non-standard about gender. I haven't really considered the effect of the total burden placed on others.

Suppose a man walks up to you and claims to be both Jesus and John Lennon, and another man walks up to you claiming to be a woman. Would you accommodate one or both of their delusions and how? What accounts for the difference? Also note how LW takes a very different approach to discussing the two delusions.

In this sense the right to "insist others play along", is nothing but the right to ask permission to entertain your own delusions (and maps) about yourself and your interaction with the world.

Except not all maps are equal. Some are more accurate then others.

It carries no bearing on what external parties do; unlike a party who is claiming that "playing along with someone else's gender delusion" is a burden on them, and insists that external parties play along with their own map (of M/F etc).

Except it does, e.g., the deluded individual insists men on attending women's colleges and going to women's bathrooms.

Comment author: Elo 07 July 2015 04:24:58AM 0 points [-]

Suppose a man walks up to you and claims to be both Jesus and John Lennon, and another man walks up to you claiming to be a woman. Would you accommodate one or both of their delusions and how?

That depends on what is required to accommodate the two people.

If "jesus" guy insists on being worshipped, then thats infringing on the boundaries of others; if he wishes to be left to his own devices of enlightenment (talking to bushes and drinking wine-water) - then sure, good for him and his utilons of happiness.

Similarly if "woman" wishes to change the world that could be violating the personal rights of others; however keeping to yourself and what you can reasonably have power over - does not burden others.

the deluded individual insists men on attending women's colleges and going to women's bathrooms.

This is an example that describes violating personal rights of others. Because of this example I believe I agree with you, however we disagree over what could/could not be permitted by reasonable liberties.

Comment author: VoiceOfRa 07 July 2015 04:46:21AM *  2 points [-]

That depends on what is required to accommodate the two people.

Let's put it this way. Would you recommend he get psychological counseling for his delusion, or tell him that his map is a perfectly valid one and that how he(she?) feels about himself he is by definition correct?

Also, suppose the men wants to adopt a kid. Should he be able to? Should adoption agencies have the right to refuse him?

the deluded individual insists men on attending women's colleges and going to women's bathrooms.

This is an example that describes violating personal rights of others. Because of this example I believe I agree with you, however we disagree over what could/could not be permitted by reasonable liberties.

Unfortunately, these are examples of demands "transwomen" are making, and frequently getting in the US. Frequently backed up by state laws.

Comment author: Elo 07 July 2015 05:47:10AM 0 points [-]

Would you recommend he get psychological counseling for his delusion, or tell him that his map is a perfectly valid one

I would do neither as both are examples of attempting to influence the world beyond the personal scope.

suppose the men wants to adopt a kid.

I have no knowledge of existing processes, but I assume somewhere it involves counselling or an evaluation as to whether the person is fit to parent. (some kind of massive paperwork process) If they pass such an ordinary process, then they should be able to do as they please.

Which is to say; yes this model breaks eventually (because someone has to evaluate and establish a baseline of "fit to parent" and declare whether the person fits within the lines or not), but it goes a lot further than "I have the right map because I say so, and everyone who doesn't have my map is wrong and should change their map to be like mine"

these are examples of demands "transwomen" are making.

Not gonna lie - the US is a strange place.

individual insists men on attending women's colleges and going to women's bathrooms.

I can't say that I know these answers; but I would start by looking at "what is a women's college and for what purpose was it defined to be so?". followed by, what does "men" mean in this instance, then "who will be directly affected by any decision, in what way?"

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