RichardKennaway comments on How my social skills went from horrible to mediocre - Less Wrong

29 Post author: JonahSinick 19 May 2015 11:29PM

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Comment author: JonahSinick 21 May 2015 04:25:26AM 1 point [-]

You are making the assumption that one's self-worth needs to be tied to one's status. Status is a part of what you are. This is not correct. You can keep your ego separate from it. Status can be a tool, it is what you have, not what you are.

No, I wasn't making such an assumption, I was trying to guess what was going on in your mind: a lot of people do attach their self-worth to their social status. I'm trying to get calibrated.

At first, I thought "LWers will be like me and not care about their relative status on an emotional level " then I thought "LWers care a huge amount about their relative status, that's why they all got angry when I wrote a strong criticism of Eliezer and SIAI in 2010, then I thought "maybe LWers don't care that much about their status after all."

If LWers weren't emotionally invested in relative status, we wouldn't be having this conversation :-). There's clearly some sort of issue of self-worth being tied to status. I just don't know how large the effect size is, and in what contexts I should and shouldn't expect it to show up. Can you help me understand?

The initial clash on LW wasn't really even directly about status. It was about rudeness. Regardless of whether one wants to play status games or not, there are social norms of politeness and etiquette.

I'm aware of this, I was intentionally departing from these norms, in an attempt to support Less Wrong's stated purpose as A community blog devoted to refining the art of rationality.

Up until recently, my attitude had been "these people are all hypocrites who don't actually care about rationality." I now know that I had been overly cynical. But taken seriously, the view "when Jonah writes things on Less Wrong, he should be careful to refrain from saying true true things when they might offend other participants" corresponds to "Less Wrong is not a community for some like Jonah whose focus is on refining the art of rationality."

Note that I do adhere to standards of polite discourse except to the extent that I express my views when I think that they're important.

No, you are mistaken about that. You would become very useful and possibly well-compensated, but just by itself the possession of valuable information will not grant you much status. It just doesn't work this way.

I meant in expectation, not necessarily.

And untangle your own ego from you ability to freely say "I'm smarter than all y'all, peasants!"

You're doing it again :D. You seem to think that I'm coming across as arrogant because I'm egotistical. This isn't at all the case – it would be a relief for me if someone else was writing about the things that I want to communicate. I've found myself in the difficult position of having important information to communicate that other people aren't communicating.

Ok, here's the situation. I believe that I know how people in our broad reference class can systematically increase their productivity by 10x-100x. I've done this by using what I learned in data science to aggregate the common wisdom of great historical figures, the best mathematicians in the world, the most knowledgable LWers and the most knowledgable people in the EA movement. Just saying "you can make yourselves ~10x more productive" pattern matches very heavily with a crackpot.

I have a cold start problem: in order for people to understand the importance of the information that I have to convey, they need to spend a fair amount of time thinking about it, but without having seen the importance of the information, they're not able to distinguish me from being a crackpot.

That's why I've been pushing for the importance off putting a lot of time into understanding substantive things: because I've had the perception that people have dug themselves into a sort of epistemic rabbit hole where it's in principle impossible for me to signal that I'm right, independently of whether or not I am.

What I want to convey is really hard (and perhaps impossible) to convey succinctly: that's why nobody's been able to do it successfully before! There are tens or hundreds of thousands of people who have known it. Bill Gates knows it, Warren Buffett knows it, Bill Clinton knows it, Freeman Dyson knows it. But it comes close to being impossible to externalize –historically people have learned how to do it by carefully observing others who can do it, generally as mediated through in-person interactions, and failing that, very careful reading of historical documents by great thinkers from the past.

Certainly the odds are against me being able to communicate it, when nobody else has been able to :D. But I still think that there's some hope. I'm at something of a loss as to how to proceed.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 21 May 2015 12:51:27PM 1 point [-]

I'm at something of a loss as to how to proceed.

Have you considered doing it on your blog instead, and posting links to it here and elsewhere? It would make it easier for you to filter out unconstructive discourse.