wedrifid comments on The Amazing Virgin Pregnancy - Less Wrong

22 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 24 December 2007 02:00PM

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Comment author: wedrifid 29 April 2011 06:07:49AM 2 points [-]

Perhaps you would like to ask your real question now?

That was my real question. Although I suppose you could generalise it to "Do you even believe all the parts that sound terrible are the word of God? Or are those parts 'translated incorrectly'?"

Because God and his angels are not very nice. In fact the angels made excellent adversaries in the Supernatural series - because they based them roughly on the biblical versions not the cultural versions.

Comment author: JohnH comment score below threshold [+] (16 children)

Comment author: JohnH 29 April 2011 06:35:10AM -3 points [-]

"Do you even believe all the parts that sound terrible are the word of God?

If this was the question then you chose a poor place to attack. You should have gone with something in Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, or Chronicles.

For instance, to answer a common objection on this site, the passover. The passover isn't something that can be brushed off as not being meant to be real as it is fundamental to the Jews and for the Christians is a sign of Christ. It also involves killing of babies.

To understand how the passover was moral it is needed to establish a few things: First, God works according to laws so while he (possibly?) could teleport people out of Egypt that would violate the agency (or free will as it is called) of everyone involved.

Second, Everyone that is under the age of 8 is not accountable for their sins.

Third, God is a utilitarian with our eternal happiness as His primary goal. Our current discomfort if it leads to our eventual modifying of our actions or desires to match what will ultimately bring us the most happiness is acceptable to Him. This can be seen in such things as the Atonement.

So God was not only attempting to get his people free but to also provide an experience that the Jews would remember through all generations. Also he was trying to convince the Egyptians that their gods were not gods.

So everyone that he killed that was younger than 8 was automatically saved. Death happens to everyone so when we die isn't terribly important to God, our eternal happiness is his goal.

So if one was a member of the group that was killed by God that was over 8 then one would have some decent evidence that the Egyptian gods were not able to provide salvation and that possibly the Jewish God could, this would hopefully cause them to convert to following God. If one was an Egyptian that was not killed by God but saw that all the first born were killed then this would provide strong evidence that the Egyptian gods were not gods and that the Jewish one was, so when one died one would be more willing to accept God. If one was Jewish then one would have strong evidence that God was indeed God and hopefully be less likely to stop following God.

Hopefully you can see how from Gods perspective the passover was overall a worthwhile investment. The Jews commemorate the event to this day so they clearly haven't forgotten, which was one of the goals of God.

There may be more to the calculus of the passover from Gods perspective, not being God I can't say I have covered everything. If one wishes to know more then one is always free to ask God about the subject.

Comment author: wedrifid 29 April 2011 06:43:40AM * 1 point [-]

If this was the question then you chose a poor place to attack.

No, my original question was my question and made for the sake of personal interest and amusement.

Second, Everyone that is under the age of 8 is not accountable for their sins.

I know, that's why I make sure to kill everyone I meet at the age of seven years and six months. It's to save their eternal souls! Bite those bullets!

Comment author: JohnH comment score below threshold [+] (14 children)

Comment author: NMJablonski 29 April 2011 06:54:52AM * -1 points [-]

Are you playing devil's advocate, or are you a Mormon missionary here for our redemption?

Edit: Why was this downvoted?

Comment author: JohnH 29 April 2011 06:59:04AM 0 points [-]

I am LDS, is there a problem with that?

Comment author: NMJablonski 29 April 2011 07:00:51AM * 0 points [-]

Not on my end. :)

Edit: And this?

Comment author: wedrifid 29 April 2011 07:24:44AM 1 point [-]

Are you playing devil's advocate

Well, in this case it is God's advocate. Apparently I'm advocating for Lucifer.

Comment author: wedrifid 29 April 2011 07:23:25AM 2 points [-]

Doing this would be a good way of damning yourself.

John 15:13 doesn't go far enough.

Greater love has no one than this: that he lay down his soul for another.

How familiar are you with the fall of Lucifer?

Not nearly as familiar as I am with the voluntary fall of Jesus who, it is said, took the wrath of heaven upon himself so that we may be saved from the fires of hell. What Would Jesus Do?

Comment author: JohnH 29 April 2011 07:30:19AM -1 points [-]

Let me clarify that, shooting 7 year olds (or forcing puberty on five year olds so as to create babies before the parents are 8 and killing the parents before they turn eight so that it is a systematic sustained process (asking your sunday school teachers about such questions (or others like what happens if you pushed an angel into a black hole) can get strange reactions out of them, by the way, and make everyone else think you are crazy, but you already do so there isn't much to lose in sharing this)) only makes sense from an LDS perspective, unless you are already a psychopath. If you already were a psychopath then me sharing this won't change much. If you are not LDS or a psychopath then killing seven year olds should already be morally objectionable enough without further explanation

. If you are LDS killing seven year olds counts as shedding innocent blood which is an unpardonable sin. Further, not allowing agency was the plan of Lucifer and the reason he fell from heaven. Therefore, one would be implementing the devils plan by killing seven year olds as well as committing an unpardonable sin. Assuming that besides gaining a body the other part of the purpose of life is to be tested in all things then attempting to prevent testing is contrary to the will of God. Further, assuming that God knows what He is doing better then you do, being omniscience and all, then implement such a strategy would result in no net change to which persons will be saved in the end and which ones will not be saved and can only result in your own damnation.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 29 April 2011 07:36:18AM 1 point [-]

If God already knows which souls are going to be damned (as is implied by your claim that wedrifid wouldn't be able to change that), why do the testing in the first place?

Comment author: JohnH 29 April 2011 07:47:55AM 1 point [-]

So that we can know what we will do.

Comment author: wedrifid 29 April 2011 07:37:01AM 0 points [-]

Replied to this when it was the edit in the ancestor.

Comment author: wedrifid 29 April 2011 07:34:43AM 1 point [-]

Let me clarify that, shooting 7 year olds (or forcing puberty on five year olds so as to create babies before the parents are 8 and killing the parents before they turn eight so that it is a systematic sustained process

Oooh, good thinking. Religion really isn't set up to handle munchkins!

(asking your sunday school teachers about such questions (or others like what happens if you pushed an angel into a black hole) can get strange reactions out of them

Angels should be no big deal. You can fit, like, a gazillion of them on the head of a pin so they shouldn't even feel much in the way of tidal forces. Don't Angels have teleportation powers anyway?

If you already were a psychopath then me sharing this won't change much.

I love the irony.

Comment author: JohnH 29 April 2011 07:46:39AM -1 points [-]

You can fit, like, a gazillion of them on the head of a pin so they shouldn't even feel much in the way of tidal forces. Don't Angels have teleportation powers anyway?

Not in the LDS perspective. For us there are three (sort of five) types of angels. There are the spirits of people that haven't been born, the spirits of people that are dead but not resurrected, and the people that have been resurrected. The other are people sent from God that are not dead, being both those that are mortal and those that have been translated. The mortal one is uninteresting, one could probably find a grad student willing to do the experiment with the promise of a PHD. The others are the more interesting ones, being what effects does gravity have on spirit matter (being that for the LDS spirit is a type of matter) and what effects would it have on a resurrected body or a translated body. Destruction of the spirit is not a possible outcome. I have determined that, unfortunately, God is not likely to allow test subjects to volunteer themselves for the experiment and/or provide a convenient black hole for said experiment. Presumably once one is resurrected one will gain that knowledge.

Something like Teleportation, I am unclear on the details.

Comment author: wedrifid 29 April 2011 07:48:51AM -2 points [-]

what effects would it have on a resurrected body or a translated body.

How are the bodies with being exposed to a vacuum indefinitely?

Comment author: JohnH 29 April 2011 07:51:07AM -1 points [-]

I assume they would be fine, being immortal.

Comment author: wedrifid 29 April 2011 07:54:08AM * 0 points [-]

Physical beatings? And how much do they weight?

How much pressure can the immortal bodies endure? None of this (apart from mass) matters from the point of view of outside the event horizon. Just what things look like inside.

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