NMJablonski comments on The Amazing Virgin Pregnancy - Less Wrong

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Comment author: NMJablonski 11 May 2011 04:15:52PM *  2 points [-]

Okay, we don't disagree at all.

There is an objective sense in which actions have consequences. I am always surprised when people seem to think I'm denying this. Science works, there is a concrete and objective reality, and we can with varying degrees of accuracy predict outcomes with empirical study. Zero disagreement from me on that point.

So, we judge consequences of actions with our preferences. One can be empirically incorrect about what consequences an action can have, and if you choose to define "wrong" as those actions which reduce the utility of whatever function you happen to care about, then sure, we can determine that objectively too. All I am saying is that there is no objective method for selecting the function to use, and it seems like we're in agreement on that.

Namely, we privilege utility functions which value human life only because of facts about our brains, as shaped by our genetics, evolution, and experiences. If an alien came along and saw humans as a pest to be eradicated, we could say:

"Exterminating us is wrong!"

... and the alien could say:

"LOL. No, silly humans. Exterminating you is right!"

And there is no sense in which either party has an objective "rightness" that the other lacks. They are each referring to the utility functions they care about.

Comment author: Peterdjones 11 May 2011 04:17:58PM 0 points [-]

And there is no sense in which either party has an objective "rightness" that the other > lacks. They are each referring to the utility functions they care about.

There is a sense in which one party is objectively wrong. The aliens do not want to be exterminated so they should not exterminate.

Comment author: NMJablonski 11 May 2011 04:24:37PM *  1 point [-]

So, we're working with thomblake's definition of "wrong" as those actions which reduce utility for whatever function an agent happens to care about. The aliens care about themselves not being exterminated, but may actually assign very high utility to humans being wiped out.

Perhaps we would be viewed as pests, like rats or pigeons. Just as humans can assign utility to exterminating rats, the aliens could do so for us.

Exterminating humans has the objectively determinable outcome of reducing the utility in your subjectively privileged function.

Comment author: Peterdjones 11 May 2011 04:31:17PM -1 points [-]

Inasmuch as we are talking about objective rightness we are talking are not talking about utility functions, because not everyone is running of the same utility function, and it makes sense to say some UFs are objectively wrong.

Comment author: NMJablonski 11 May 2011 04:33:10PM 1 point [-]

What would it mean for a utility function to be objectively wrong? How would one determine that a utility function has the property of "wrongness"?

Please, do not answer "by reasoning about it" unless you are willing to provide that reasoning.

Comment author: Peterdjones 11 May 2011 04:41:43PM *  -1 points [-]

I did provide the reasoning in the alien example.

There is a sense in which one party is objectively wrong. The aliens do not want to be exterminated so they should not exterminate.

Comment author: NMJablonski 11 May 2011 04:52:43PM 2 points [-]

Let's break this all the way down. Can you give me your thesis?

I mean, I see there is a claim here:

The aliens do not want to be exterminated so they should not exterminate.

... of the format (X therefore Y). I can understand what the (X) part of it means: aliens with a preference not to be destroyed. Now the (Y) part is a little murky. You're saying that the truth of X implies that they "should not exterminate". What does the word should mean there?

Comment author: thomblake 11 May 2011 06:19:07PM 1 point [-]

"Exterminating us is wrong!" ... and the alien could say: "LOL. No, silly humans. Exterminating you is right!" And there is no sense in which either party has an objective "rightness" that the other lacks. They are each referring to the utility functions they care about.

Note that the definitional dispute rears its head in the case where the humans say, "Exterminating us is morally wrong!" in which case strong moral relativists insist the aliens should respond, "No, exterminating you is morally right!", while moral realists insist the aliens should respond "We don't care that it's morally wrong - it's shmorally right!"

There is also a breed of moral realist who insists that the aliens would have somehow also evolved to care about morality, as the Kantians who believe morality follows necessarily from basic reason. I think the burden of proof still falls on them for that, but unfortunately there aren't many smart aliens to test.