jacob_cannell comments on Leaving LessWrong for a more rational life - Less Wrong

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Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 22 May 2015 04:54:38AM *  37 points [-]

Thanks for sharing your contrarian views, both with this post and with your previous posts. Part of me is disappointed that you didn't write more... it feels like you have several posts' worth of objections to Less Wrong here, and at times you are just vaguely gesturing towards a larger body of objections you have towards some popular LW position. I wouldn't mind seeing those objections fleshed out in to long, well-researched posts. Of course you aren't obliged to put in the time & effort to write more posts, but it might be worth your time to fix specific flaws you see in the LW community given that it consists of many smart people interested in maximizing their positive impact on the far future.

I'll preface this by stating some points of general agreement:

  • I haven't bothered to read the quantum physics sequence (I figure if I want to take the time to learn that topic, I'll learn from someone who researches it full-time).

  • I'm annoyed by the fact that the sequences in practice seem to constitute a relatively static document that doesn't get updated in response to critiques people have written up. I think it's worth reading them with a grain of salt for that reason. (I'm also annoyed by the fact that they are extremely wordy and mostly without citation. Given the choice of getting LWers to either read the sequences or read Thinking Fast and Slow, I would prefer they read the latter; it's a fantastic book, and thoroughly backed up by citations. No intellectually serious person should go without reading it IMO, and it's definitely a better return on time. Caveat: I personally haven't read the sequences through and through, although I've read lots of individual posts, some of which were quite insightful. Also, there is surprisingly little overlap between the two works and it's likely worthwhile to read both.)

And here are some points of disagreement :P

You talk about how Less Wrong encourages the mistake of reasoning by analogy. I searched for "site:lesswrong.com reasoning by analogy" on Google and came up with these 4 posts: 1, 2, 3, 4. Posts 1, 2, and 4 argue against reasoning by analogy, while post 3 claims the situation is a bit more nuanced. In this comment here, I argue that reasoning by analogy is a bit like taking the outside view: analogous phenomena can be considered part of the same (weak) reference class. So...

  • Insofar as there is an explicit "LW consensus" about whether reasoning by analogy is a good idea, it seems like you've diagnosed it incorrectly (although maybe there are implicit cultural norms that go against professed best practices).

  • It seems useful to know the answer to questions like "how valuable are analogies", and the discussions I linked to above seem like discussions that might help you answer that question. These discussions are on LW.

  • Finally, it seems you've been unable to escape a certain amount of reasoning by analogy in your post. You state that experimental investigation of asteroid impacts was useful, so by analogy, experimental investigation of AI risks should be useful.

The steelman of this argument would be something like "experimentally, we find that investigators who take experimental approaches tend to do better than those who take theoretical approaches". But first, this isn't obviously true... mathematicians, for instance, have found theoretical approaches to be more powerful. (I'd guess that the developer of Bitcoin took a theoretical rather than an empirical approach to creating a secure cryptocurrency.) And second, I'd say that even this argument is analogy-like in its structure, since the reference class of "people investigating things" seems sufficiently weak to start pushing in to analogy territory. See my above point about how reasoning by analogy at its best is reasoning from a weak reference class. (Do people think this is worth a toplevel post?)

This brings me to what I think is my most fundamental point of disagreement with you. Viewed from a distance, your argument goes something like "Philosophy is a waste of time! Resolve your disagreements experimentally! There's no need for all this theorizing!" And my rejoinder would be: Resolving disagreements experimentally is great... when it's possible. We'd love to do a randomized controlled trial of whether universes with a Machine Intelligence Research Institute are more likely to have a positive singularity, but that unfortunately we don't currently know how to do that.

There are a few issues with too much emphasis of experimentation over theory. The first issue is that you may be tempted to prefer experimentation over theory even for problems that theory is better suited for (e.g. empirically testing prime number conjectures). The second issue is that you may fall prey to the streetlight effect and prioritize areas of investigation that look tractable from an experimental point of view, ignoring questions that are both very important and not very tractable experimentally.

You write:

Well, much of our uncertainty about the actions of an unfriendly AI could be resolved if we were to know more about how such agents construct their thought models, and relatedly what language were used to construct their goal systems.

This would seem to depend on the specifics of the agent in question. This seems like a potentially interesting line of inquiry. My impression is that MIRI thinks most possible AGI architectures wouldn't meet its standards for safety, so given that their ideal architecture is so safety-constrained, they're focused on developing the safety stuff first before working on constructing thought models etc. This seems like a pretty reasonable approach for an organization with limited resources, if it is in fact MIRI's approach. But I could believe that value could be added by looking at lots of budding AGI architectures and trying to figure out how one might make them safer on the margin.

We could also stand to benefit from knowing more practical information (experimental data) about in what ways AI boxing works and in what ways it does not, and how much that is dependent on the structure of the AI itself.

Sure... but note that Eliezer Yudkowsky from MIRI was the one who invented the AI box experiment and ran the first few experiments, and FHI wrote this paper consisting of a bunch of ideas for what AI boxes consist of. (The other thing I didn't mention as a weakness of empiricism is that empiricism doesn't tell you what hypotheses might be useful to test. Knowing what hypotheses to test is especially nice to know when testing hypotheses is expensive.)

I could believe that there are fruitful lines of experimental inquiry that are neglected in the AI safety space. Overall it looks kinda like crypto to me in the sense that theoretical investigation seems more likely to pan out. But I'm supportive of people thinking hard about specific useful experiments that someone could run. (You could survey all the claims in Bostrom's Superintelligence and try to estimate what fraction could be cheaply tested experimentally. Remember that just because a claim can't be tested experimentally doesn't mean it's not an important claim worth thinking about...)

Comment author: jacob_cannell 27 May 2015 04:03:25PM 0 points [-]

The steelman of this argument would be something like "experimentally, we find that investigators who take experimental approaches tend to do better than those who take theoretical approaches". But first, this isn't obviously true... mathematicians, for instance, have found theoretical approaches to be more powerful. (I'd guess that the developer of Bitcoin took a theoretical rather than an empirical approach to creating a secure cryptocurrency, for instance.)

This example actually proves the opposite. Bitcoin was described in a white paper that wasn't very impressive by academic crypto standards - few if anyone became interested in Bitcoin from first reading the paper in the early days. It's success was proven by experimentation, not pure theoretical investigation.

My impression is that MIRI thinks most possible AGI architectures wouldn't meet its standards for safety, so given that their ideal architecture is so safety-constrained, they're focused on developing the safety stuff first before working on constructing thought models etc. This seems like a pretty reasonable approach for an organization with limited resources, if it is in fact MIRI's approach. But I could believe that value could be added by looking at lots of budding AGI architectures and trying to figure out how one might make them safer on the margin.

It's hard to investigate safety if one doesn't know the general shape that AGI will finally take. MIRI has focused on a narrow subset of AGI space - namely transparent math/logic based AGI. Unfortunately it is becoming increasingly clear that the Connectionists were more or less absolutely right in just about every respect . AGI will likely take the form of massive brain-like general purpose ANNs. Most of MIRI's research thus doesn't even apply to the most likely AGI candidate architecture.

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 11 June 2015 04:02:44PM *  0 points [-]

In this essay I wrote:

if intelligence is a complicated, heterogeneous process where computation is spread relatively evenly among many modules, then improving the performance of an AGI gets tougher, because upgrading an individual module does little to improve the performance of the system as a whole.

I'm guessing this is likely to be true of general-purpose ANNs, meaning recursive self-improvement would be more difficult for a brain-like ANN than it might be for some other sort of AI? (This would be somewhat reassuring if it was true.)

Comment author: jacob_cannell 11 June 2015 10:17:27PM *  1 point [-]

meaning recursive self-improvement would be more difficult for a brain-like ANN than it might be for some other sort of AI?

It's not clear that there is any other route to AGI - all routes lead to "brain-like ANNs", regardless of what linguistic label we use (graphical models, etc).

General purpose RL - in ideal/optimal theoretical form - already implements recursive self-improvement in the ideal way. If you have an ideal/optimal general RL system running, then there are no remaining insights you could possibly have which could further improve its own learning ability.

The evidence is accumulating that general Bayesian RL can be efficiently approximated, that real brains implement something like this, and that very powerful general purpose AI/AGI can be built on the same principles.

Now, I do realize that by "recursive self-improvement" you probably mean a human level AGI consciously improving its own 'software design', using slow rule based/logic thinking of the type suitable for linguistic communication. But there is no reason to suspect that the optimal computational form of self-improvement should actually be subject to those constraints.

The other, perhaps more charitable view of "recursive self-improvement" is the more general idea of the point in time where AGI engineers/researchers takeover most of the future AGI engineering/research work. Coming up with new learning algorithms will probably be only a small part of the improvement work at that point. Implementations however can always be improved, and there is essentially an infinite space of better hardware designs. Coming up with new model architectures and training environments will also have scope for improvement.

Also, it doesn't really appear to matter much how many modules the AGI has, because improvement doesn't rely much on human insights into how each module works. Even with zero new 'theoerical' insights, you can just run the AGI on better hardware and it will be able to think faster or split into more copies. Either way, it will be able to speed up the rate at which it soaks up knowledge and automatically rewires itself (self-improves).

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 11 June 2015 03:39:26PM *  0 points [-]

This example actually proves the opposite. Bitcoin was described in a white paper that wasn't very impressive by academic crypto standards - few if anyone became interested in Bitcoin from first reading the paper in the early days. It's success was proven by experimentation, not pure theoretical investigation.

By experimentation, do you mean people running randomized controlled trials on Bitcoin or otherwise empirically testing hypotheses on the software? Just because your approach is collaborative and incremental doesn't mean that it's empirical.

Comment author: jacob_cannell 11 June 2015 09:55:24PM 0 points [-]

By experimentation, do you mean people running randomized controlled trials on Bitcoin or otherwise empirically testing hypotheses on the software?

Not really - by experimentation I meant proving a concept by implementing it and then observing whether the implementation works or not, as contrasted to the pure math/theory approach where you attempt to prove something abstractly on paper.

For context, I was responding to your statement:

But first, this isn't obviously true... mathematicians, for instance, have found theoretical approaches to be more powerful. (I'd guess that the developer of Bitcoin took a theoretical rather than an empirical approach to creating a secure cryptocurrency, for instance.)

Bitcoin is an example of typical technological development, which is driven largely by experimentation/engineering rather than math/theory. Theory is important mainly as a means to generate ideas for experimentation.