Jiro comments on Rationality Quotes Thread June 2015 - Less Wrong

7 Post author: Gondolinian 31 May 2015 02:12AM

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Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 08 June 2015 06:46:37AM 2 points [-]

"One of the reasons we are attracted to the Colosseum is because of the incredible violence that went on here. The question it poses is, how could such an advanced culture have staged such bloody spectacles? The Colosseum is a snapshot in stone, a physical embodiment of the culture of Rome."

-- Gary Glassman (quoted in Colosseum killing machine reconstructed after more than 1,500 years

Emphasis mine: I'm not surprised. Culture is relative and I see lots of reasons this could have been beneficial to the society at that time.

Comment author: Jiro 08 June 2015 02:49:48PM 5 points [-]

The obvious question is "what's so contradictory about being an advanced culture and staging bloody spectacles"? Especially given the large ground that is covered by the term "advanced culture".

Comment author: [deleted] 17 June 2015 02:06:54PM 0 points [-]

Well, it is one of the things that was drilled into us all life long that there is a progress in history from barbaric behavior to "nice" (or, properly, ethical, compassionate) behavior.

But beyond that there is indeed a process of increasing cooperation. There is usually peace inside nations and empires, i.e. they don't allow their constitutent tribes, if they still exist, to fight each other. While this increasing cooperation is largely about banding together to fight someone else, still it creates a certain progress in morals. Thucydides wrote that the ancestors of Greeks did not know the idea of peace. They just pirated on each other all the time. Peace was invented through military alliance: teamed up against some other polis and then realized it is not nice to pirate on your ally. So through banding up to fight someone else, internal cooperation and peace is acheived. And you cannot have an advanced culture without it. There is no economic progress with a deep division of labor, meaning trade, meaning peace within the empire. And this success of cooperation permeates then religion and philosophy and people's values.

Sorry, I think I dumped a bit of an unedited train of thought on you. I'll try to organize better. So advanced means rich, rich means division of labor, div. of labor means trade, trade means peace inside the empire, means a value system that values cooperation and peace increasingly, then the whole thing gets justified by philosophy, art and religion which ingraines the values even more, and then they should be shocked by bloody spectacles.

Comment author: Jiro 17 June 2015 02:37:30PM 0 points [-]

The "bloody spectacles" that the article refers to are animals, not people, being killed. There is a cursory mention that the animals fought people, but the article is clearly about the animals.

The kind of cooperation in advanced cultures that you're talking about involves people cooperating with other people, not with animals.