ZoltanBerrigomo comments on There is no such thing as strength: a parody - Less Wrong

25 Post author: ZoltanBerrigomo 05 July 2015 11:44PM

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Comment author: ZoltanBerrigomo 06 July 2015 06:31:11PM *  7 points [-]

I was not trying to suggest that intelligence and strength are as alike as race and strength. Rather, I was motivated by the observation that there are a number of arguments floating around to the effect that,

A. Race doesn't exist

B. Intelligence doesn't exist.

and, actually, to a lesser extent,

C. Rationality doesn't exist (as a coherent notion).

The arguments for A,B,C are often dubious and tend to overlap heavily; I wanted to write something which would show how flawed those arguments are through a reductio ad absurdum.

To put it another way, even if strength (or intelligence or race) really was an incoherent notion, none of the arguments 1-7 in my post establish that it is so. It isn't that that these arguments are wholly wrong -- in fact, there is a measure of truth to each of them -- but that they don't suffice to establish the conclusion.

Comment author: Alejandro1 06 July 2015 09:12:33PM 1 point [-]

When people say things like "intelligence doesn't exist" or "race doesn't exist", charitably, they don't mean that the folk concepts of "intelligence" or "race" are utterly meaningless. I'd bet they still use the words, or synonyms for it, in informal contexts, analogously to how we use informally "strength". (E.g. "He's very smart"; "They are an interrracial couple"; "She's stronger than she looks"). What they object to is to treating them as a scientifically precise concepts that denote intrinsic, context-independent characteristics. I agree with gjm that your parody arguments against "strength" seem at least superficially plausible if read in the same way than the opponents of "race" and "intelligence" intend theirs.

Comment author: ZoltanBerrigomo 06 July 2015 09:26:05PM *  2 points [-]

A. I think at least some people do mean that concepts of intelligence and race are, in some sense, inherently meaningless.

When people say

"race does not exist because it is a social construct"

or that race does not exist because

"amount of variation within races is much larger than the amount of variation between races,"

I think it is being overly charitable to read that as saying

"race is not a scientifically precise concept that denotes intrinsic, context-independent characteristics."

B. Along the same lines, I believe I am justified in taking people at their word. If people want to say "race is not a scientifically precise concept" then they should just say that. They should not say that race does not exist, and if they do say the latter, I think that opens them up to justifiable criticism.

Comment author: Alejandro1 07 July 2015 09:11:13AM 1 point [-]

It is true that normally, taking people at their word is charitable. But if someone says that a concept is meaningless (when discussing it in a theoretical fashion), and then proceeds to use informally in ordinary conversation (as I conjectured that most people do with race and intelligence) then we cannot take them literally at their word. I think that something like my interpretation is the most charitable in this case.

Comment author: ZoltanBerrigomo 08 July 2015 04:13:47AM *  1 point [-]

First, I'm not so sure: if someone is actually inconsistent, then pointing out the inconsistency may be the better (more charitable?) thing to do rather than pretending the person had made the closest consistent argument.

For example: there are a lot of academics who attack reason itself as fundamentally racist, imperialistic, etc. They back this up with something that looks like an argument. I think they are simply being inconsistent and contradictory, rather than meaning something deep not apparent at first glance.

More importantly, I think your conjecture is wrong.

On intelligence, I believe that many of the people who think intelligence does not exist would further object to a statement like "A is smarter than B," thinking it a form of ableism.

One example, just to show what I mean:

http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/23/ableist-word-profile-intelligence/

On race, the situation is more complicated: the "official line" is that race does not exist, but racism does. That is, people who say race does not exist also believe that people classify humans in terms of perceived race, even though the concept itself has no meaning (no "realness in a genetic sense" as one of the authors I cited in this thread puts it) . It is only in this sense that they would accept statements of the form "A and B are an interracial couple."

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 11 July 2015 03:09:11AM -1 points [-]

Ableism is a lot more recent (or at least more recently popular) than the idea that intelligence does not exist. I don't think it's very relevant