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polymathwannabe comments on Crazy Ideas Thread - Less Wrong
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A single world language should be designed and promoted. Previous attempts have been too Eurocentric to take advantage of all useful grammatical features that are available.
Alternative option: English is already a de facto world language, and it is well suited to borrowing foreign terms when it needs to, but humanity should be ashamed that it conducts its main scientific, commercial and diplomatic operations in a language with such a defective writing system. Spelling reform (or a completely new, purely phonetic alphabet) is urgent. I would advocate adapting Hangul for that purpose.
The International Phonetic Alphabet was originally meant to be used as a natural language writing system (for example, the journal of the International Phonetic Association was originally written in IPA: http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2012/06/100-years-ago.html). Between IPA's theoretical (physiological) grounding, its wide use by linguists, and its near-legibility by untrained English literati, IPA is over-determined as the obvious choice for a reformed orthography, if English were every made to conform phonetically to a standard pronunciation. That said, it's not going to happen, because spelling reform is not urgent to anyone with capital to try it. Like, someone could make a browser extension that would replace words their IPA spellings, so that an online community could familiarize themselves with the new spelling, but no one has made that, or paid for it to be made, and this places a strong upper bound on how much anyone cares about spelling reform.
I didn't look for an extension, but there are definitely a few webpages that will do it for you. For example, your post:
ðə ɪntərnæʃənəl fənɛtɪk ælfəbɛt wəz ərɪdʒənəli mɛnt tu bi juzd æz ə nætʃərəl læŋgwədʒ rajtɪŋ sɪstəm ( fɔr ɪgzæmpəl, ðə dʒərnəl əv ðə ɪntərnæʃənəl fənɛtɪk əsosieʃən wəz ərɪdʒənəli rɪtən ɪn ajpie: èʧtitipí:// fənɛtɪk- blɒg. blogspot. kɑm/ 2012/ 06/ 100- jɪrz- əgo. eʧtiɛmɛl). bətwin ipa|s θiərɛtɪkəl ( fɪziəlɑdʒɪkəl) grawndɪŋ, ɪts wajd jus baj lɪŋgwəsts, ænd ɪts nɪr- lɛdʒəbɪləti baj əntrend ɪŋglɪʃ lɪtərɑti, ajpie ɪz ovər- dətərmənd æz ðə ɑbviəs tʃɔjs fɔr ə rəfɔrmd ɒrθɑgrəfi, ɪf ɪŋglɪʃ wər ɛvəri med tu kənfɔrm fənɛtɪkli tu ə stændərd pronənsieʃən. ðæt sɛd, ɪts nɑt goɪŋ tu hæpən, bɪkɒz spɛlɪŋ rəfɔrm ɪz nɑt ərdʒənt tu ɛniwən wɪθ kæpətəl tu traj ɪt. lajk, səmwən kʊd mek ə brawzər ɪkstɛnʃən ðæt wʊd riples wərdz ðɛr ajpie spɛlɪŋz, so ðæt æn ɒnlɑjn kəmjunəti kʊd fəmɪljərɑjz ðɛmsɛlvz wɪθ ðə nu spɛlɪŋ, bət no wən hæz med ðæt, ɔr ped fɔr ɪt tu bi med, ænd ðɪs plesəz ə strɒŋ əpər bawnd ɑn haw mətʃ ɛniwən kɛrz əbawt spɛlɪŋ rəfɔrm.
(Though the url got really garbled.)
I'd never thought of such an extension, and my first thought when you mentioned it was "I'd fund that kickstarter". Could we organize such? How much work would it be likely to take/how much would it be likely to cost?
There are so many constructed languages already that you do not need to design anything, if you have some criteria, just pick one that suits you, brush it up and maybe replace the vocabulary. And then goes the minor issue of promoting it and gaining speakers :-)
English is rather badly suited for an international auxiliary language, as the things go. But still better than French or Chinese, all things considered. Spelling is OK, it's the pronunciation that sucks :-) And its weird syntax and internally inconsistent vocabulary.
You really, really do not want phonetic writing system - phonemic is what you should go after, but morphophonemic has certain advantages too, especially for non-native speakers.
If you match your phonology to 15th century Korean, sure. Not so much otherwise without a substantial reform and introduction of new letters. Anyway, Hangul is more suited for a morphematic writing system, not phone[mt]ic one.
Playing devil's advocate: Archaic spelling rules allow you to quickly gauge other people's intelligence, which is useful. It causes society to respect stupid people less, by providing objective evidence of their stupidity.
But I don't actually think the benefits outweigh the costs there, and the signal is confounded by things like being a native English-speaker.
Spelling is more a gauge of how attentive you were in early schooling than of how intelligent you are. It's basically a form of conspicuous consumption of the scarce resources of childhood attention and teaching time.
The cultural notion that bad spelling is an indicator of stupidity is self-reinforcing, though: it prevents English from undergoing spelling reforms like those German, Spanish, Russian, and many other languages have had, because any "reformed" spelling will necessarily look like ignorant spelling.
Because English spelling is unusually difficult, it is a challenge. Because it is a challenge, people who have mastered it care about the fact that they have mastered it. And because of that, it can't be made easier.
I think it's a gauge of how much you read. Bad spelling is not an indicator of stupidity, but an indicator of not having read enough.
It is much easier to do a spelling reform in a mostly illiterate country, where you can defend it by saying "look, most people can't read, we need to make it easier for them". Having a monarchy or dictatorship also helps to introduce the changes quickly and everywhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Russian_orthography
Today I learned: Russian once had a letter for "th", but it was removed and replaced by either "f" or "t".
Indeed. Look at the rejected recent German orthography reform – and the changes were (relatively) minor.
Or the messed up Slovak orthography reform from the '90s – and that was mostly a few acutes here and there.
I'd assume it's a measure of both attentiveness and intelligence. And also of how much reading you did when young. I expect all these things correlate enough to make it hard to disentangle them, but just on first principles it seems obvious that you'll learn spellings better (1) if you generally learn things better, (2) if you're exposed to more correct spellings, and (3) if you're paying more attention to spelling relative to other things.
I agree about the difficulties of spelling reform. Perhaps sufficient support from high-status intellectual literary people might get past the "reform looks like ignorance" problem. Strong support from George Bernard Shaw wasn't enough for English in the early 20th century; perhaps it could be done with a large enough coalition of obviously expert people, or incrementally with each smaller step perhaps being easier to accept.
(Whether it would be a good idea, I don't know. I've not seen evidence that the difficulty of spelling in English -- which I think is one of the hardest-to-spell major languages -- causes much actual harm. And yes, for the avoidance of doubt, the Mark Twain thing [EDITED to add: very probably not actually written by Mark Twain] I linked to was written as a joke and not a serious proposal; I linked to it because I think it's funny.)
Is there a chance to agree on which gramatical features are useful?
For example, what colors does the language have words for? Does it distinguish gramatical singular and plural? How about dual? How many tenses? Clusivity? Honorifics? Etc.
My intuition is that in a "perfect" language all these things should exist, and all should be optional. (Not sure about the colors; perhaps we should have separate words for "green" and "blue", but also one for "green or blue", and also one for "light blue" and one for "dark blue" to make everyone happy. I hope the list would not grow too much.)
Spelling reform will fail because of regional differences in pronunciation. Also, spelling reform is bad for culture since it means that people taught the new system will be unable to read older material.
Well, you won't be able to accommodate everybody's pronunciation, but with a decent diaphonemic system could allow you to deduce the pronunciation of almost all words in most mainstream varieties of English from their spelling.
Maybe not if you wrote a computer program to convert old spellings to new spellings.
Indeed, it's problematic that English is open source instead of having a central authority. But just like the printing press standardized written German, the internet may make spoken English more homogeneous. In the spirit of efficiency, my not-at-all-humble opinion is that local linguistic variations ought to be regarded as a bug, not a feature. Regionalism be damned.
...so you can't read Beowulf because you don't know the Saxon script?
The People's Republic of China is the biggest example of a successful comprehensive script reform. Korea loves its totally artificial Hangul, and Turkey is doing fine with the Latin alphabet. Japan took a lot longer to standardize its script, but it makes a lot more sense now than in the past. In each country, scholars who want to work with old books can still learn the former scripts.
The language of Beowulf is far enough from ours that I need to do a lot of studying before I can read it anyway, so the additional effort to learn a script wouldn't make much of a difference. If, for instance, Shakespeare was in a different script, it would certainly cut down on the number of people who read Shakespeare (unless translated versions became widely available, which is possible for Shakespeare, but would not be true for most old works.)
Furthermore, doing such reform now would mean doing it after cheap mass market printing, which would make the effect much worse (and unlike Shakespeare, the works would be copyrighted, so if the owner refuses to publish a translated version, nobody else could). I don't know how many mass market books there were in Turkey in the 1920's.
Simultaneous with the script reform in Turkey was a language reform that tried to remove Arabic words, to align it with the West. Not being able to read the old books may have been the goal.
As long as this international english is restricted to diplomacy, commerce and science. I retch at the thought of literature written in a dry, unidiosyncratic, flavourless language with the charmless consistency of an office clerk.
Even if you design a perfectly dry and insipid language, you can always count on poets to make it more complicated than it needs to be.
Um, spelling reform large destroys the benefits of already being a de facto world language.
You cite the language's tendency to borrow foreign terms as a positive thing. Wouldn't that require an inconsistent orthography?
In its current state, English does tend to borrow terms without changing their spelling (e.g. plateau), but in my proposed system they would all have to be adapted. Many languages already do that: Spanish borrowed football and turned it into fútbol.