knb comments on Open Thread, Jul. 20 - Jul. 26, 2015 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: MrMind 20 July 2015 06:55AM

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Comment author: [deleted] 20 July 2015 08:21:29AM *  0 points [-]

I have realized I don't understand the first thing about evolutionary psychology. I used to think the selfish gene of a male will want to get planted into as many wombs as possible and this our most basic drive. But actually any gene that would result in having many children but not so many great-great-grandchildren due to the "quality" of our children being low would get crowded out by the genes that do. Having 17 sons of the Mr. Bean type may not be such a big reproductive success down the road.

Since most women managed to reproduce, we can assume a winner strategy is having a large number of daughters but perhaps for sons the selfish gene may want quality and status more than quantity. Anecdotally, in more traditional societies what typically men want is not a huge army of children but a high-status male heir, a "crown prince". Arab men traditionally rename themselves after their first son, Musa's father literally renames himself to Musa's father: Abu-Musa. This sort of suggests they are less interested in quantity...

At this point I must admit I have no longer an idea what the basic biological male drive is. It is not simply unrestricted polygamy and racking up as many notches as possible. It is some sort of a sweet spot between quantity and quality, and in quality not only the genetic quality of the mother matters but also the education of the sons i.e. investing into fathering, the amount of status that can be inherited and so on? Which suggests more of a monogamous drive.

Besides to make it really complicated, while the ancestral father's genes may "assume" his daughters will be able to reproduce to full capacity, there is still a value in parenting and generally quality because if the daughter manages to catch a high quality man, an attractive man, her sons may be higher quality, more attractive guys, and thus her sons can have a higher quantity of offspring and basically the man's "be a good father of my daughter" genes win at the great-grandchildren level!

This kind of modelling actually sounds like something doable with mathemathics, something like game theory, right? We could figure out how the utility function of the selfish gene looks like game-theoretically? Was it done already?

Comment author: knb 20 July 2015 09:41:21AM 13 points [-]

I have realized I don't understand the first thing about evolutionary psychology.

If you're really curious, I recommend picking up an evolutionary psychology textbook rather than speculating/seeking feedback on speculations from non-experts. Lots of people have strong opinions about Evo Psych without actually having much real knowledge about the discipline.

Anecdotally, in more traditional societies what typically men want is not a huge army of children but a high-status male heir

I don't really believe in this anecdote; large numbers of children are definitely a point of pride in traditional cultures.

Since most women managed to reproduce, we can assume a winner strategy is having a large number of daughters

Surely you don't think daughters are more reproductively successful than sons on average?

Comment author: [deleted] 20 July 2015 09:56:40AM -1 points [-]

Surely you don't think daughters are more reproductively successful than sons on average?

Surely I do - it is common knowledge today that about 40% of men and 80% of women managed to reproduce?

Comment author: D_Malik 20 July 2015 10:50:36AM *  10 points [-]

Every child has both a mother and a father, and there are about as many men as women, so the mean number of children is about the same for males as for females. But there are more childless men than childless women, because polygyny is more common than polyandry, ultimately because of Bateman's principle.