Grothor comments on Stupid Questions August 2015 - Less Wrong

7 Post author: Grothor 01 August 2015 11:08PM

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Comment author: adamzerner 02 August 2015 05:20:10PM *  3 points [-]

We had a discussion about how hard it is to spend all your time around unusually intelligent people, and then go out into the real world and have conversations with normal people.

What do you mean by "hard"? Difficult? Frustrating? Boring?

I don't think that intelligence itself it causally related to any of those 3 things.

  • You could be "intelligent" and have "social skills".
  • You could be "intelligent" and not be frustrated by normal people. Maybe you're a huge humanist who just loves people so much. Maybe you don't view normal people as being at fault. Maybe your expectations are low for a number of reasons.
  • You could be "intelligent" and find normal people enjoyable. You probably wouldn't get to be intellectually stimulated by interactions with normal people, but you might... enjoy the "mere exposure" (humans enjoy socializing), enjoy goofing around, enjoy teaching them, enjoy their kindness, enjoy observing them as a means to better understand cognitive psychology.

My guess is that intelligent people...

  • Who spend a lot of time in a certain in-group might "forget" what the norms of other groups are like. I mean "forget" in a "procedural" sense rather than a "declarative" one. A lot of times you might just acting according to the norms you're used to out of habit, but then realize, "oh yeah, normal people don't do this".
  • Intelligent people (feel that they) understand that and why a lot of the things normal people do aren't rational. I think that given a "default" perspective, this is very frustrating. But given a different perspective, it isn't necessarily frustrating (I'd love to hear more about this perspective...).
  • Intelligent people seem to be somewhat socialized to think that "normal pleasures" are sort of... "lesser". And so they don't derive as much joy from them, and instead need a certain amount of intellectual stimulation.
Comment author: Grothor 02 August 2015 07:37:16PM *  4 points [-]

What do you mean by "hard"? Difficult? Frustrating? Boring?

For a variety of reasons, I'm hesitant to share a specific example, but here is an exchange from the conversation I had recently:

<Some typical introductory stuff, in which she seemed pretty engaged, and in which she told me she was "in the fashion industry">

Me: To me, the fashion industry is this black box that has people in it, and clothing comes out of it

Her (surprised, confused): It's not like that at all!

Me: What I mean is that I don't know anything about how it works, except that it involves people who design clothing, and then somebody buys it

Her (still confused): Yeah...

<at this point I decided trying to get her to tell me about it wasn't going anywhere, so I moved on to attempt at embarrassing my friend who was standing nearby, who then got lots of unwanted attention from her>

So I guess it's mainly frustrating or boring?

Comment author: ChristianKl 06 August 2015 09:01:10AM 3 points [-]

Me: To me, the fashion industry is this black box that has people in it, and clothing comes out of it

That might be understood as you expressing that you consider the fashion industry low status with a challenge for her to prove otherwise.

<at this point I decided trying to get her to tell me about it wasn't going anywhere, so I moved on to attempt at embarrassing my friend who was standing nearby, who then got lots of unwanted attention from her>

The straightforward way to get her to tell you something about the fashion industry would be to ask her a question about it. You didn't.

Most people in parties don't focus on exchange of information. If you are talking to someone who thinks conversation is about finding a topic where meaningful information can be exchanged the purpose of your remarks is more obvious than if you are talking to someone who has other goals.

Comment author: adamzerner 02 August 2015 08:13:59PM *  2 points [-]

Hahahaha, that's really funny! "It's not like that at all" :)

My understanding is that the black box analogy is understood by some normal people, but not most.

How could you have made for a more enjoyable interaction? Some thoughts that come to my mind:

  • (Meta level: What's my goal? Enjoyable conversation? Where do our interests overlap? I like to have interesting conversations. She's probably not very smart, so her ability to have interesting conversations is probably limited to her domain. What interesting conversations could we have within her domain? What thoughts do I have about her domain? What are the likely ways she'd respond to those thoughts? Alternatives: skipping shallow talk and talking about emotional things is probably enjoyable. For some reason humans enjoy sharing their feelings. What's the line between interesting and creepy? Are you happy? What are your ambitions? What would you do if you didn't have to work?)
  • Our society's fashion seems really dark. Dark blues, blacks, browns, greys etc. I think it'd be cool if there were more color. I like to wear colorful clothing, but don't really. Mostly because it's more difficult to pair things up and I'm lazy. Which would lead to her probably giving advice, and maybe talking about color in a historical sense. Was it more colorful in the past? Will it be in the future? On that note, are there any trends in color? What about across cultures? Do any consistencies across culture say anything about design/color and human nature?
  • Maybe once she's been loosened up, I'd comment on how I love wearing pajama pants. Plus some stories of that. And my thoughts on how society seems to have chosen pretty uncomfortable clothes as its norms. There's probably nothing inherent about suits and khakis and jeans that look good. If we all agreed that something more comfortable was the new norm, we'd probably be better off. (Pet peeve: the "shoulder pads" on suits are just ridiculous. You can't even lift up your arms!) I wouldn't open with this though; it'd probably be seen as too controversial and weird right away. But it might be fun/funny once the person's been loosened up.
  • People who otherwise aren't intelligent often have somewhat smart things to say within their domain. So maybe you'd be able to have some sort of enjoyable conversations with her about fashion, and maybe she'd enjoy the cognitive psychology topics/spins.
Comment author: Grothor 02 August 2015 08:21:52PM 2 points [-]

People who otherwise aren't intelligent often have somewhat smart things to say within their domain.

Right! And this is why I tried to get her talking about fashion. I think your suggestion of asking more specific questions is very helpful. I'll definitely try that next time I'm having trouble with the more generic "tell me about your expertise" type questions.

Comment author: adamzerner 02 August 2015 08:31:57PM *  1 point [-]

Yeah. One more thing - in some ways I'm a bit egocentric. So my instinct is to think about the thoughts that I have on the topic and discuss them (I tend to have a lot of thoughts about a lot of things. Or at least a lot of questions.). I notice that I didn't think too much about the strategy of evoking her strongly held opinions. But something about my more egocentric approach of pursuing lines of conversation that interest me feels more... natural/genuine, which I think often leads to good.

(Not that I've had much success. I've always done well in "natural" conversations and am outgoing, but I've never been motivated enough to overcome the awkwardness of initiating conversations with random people out of nothing.)

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