Jiro comments on Ideas on growth of the community - Less Wrong

3 Post author: Lu93 12 August 2015 06:45PM

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Comment author: Lu93 14 August 2015 12:39:56PM -2 points [-]

I don't think that having more meta-threads on how the community can improved provides the kind of content that brings LW forward. I don't think that having an extra section for meta conversation about LW could be improved would be a move in the right direction.

Funny you say that. Because you want LW to go forward, no? I got that from your wording. However, you want to avoid talking about that, and you want to proceed doing what you feel you need to do, which is making posts on whatever you want to post about. You don't want to do it deliberately, and you want to let it happen on its own. I think that if you thought for 5 minutes on this topic (improvement of LW), you would not have this opinion.

Especially for people with low karma. Is this ad hominem? Better evaluate my arguments than my karma. And even if you want to evaluate me, having karma as only argument is pretty miserable.

I will continue with position you want LW to improve. Do you claim that staying the same will improve LW or its members? Do we agree LW has to change, as well as its members in order to improve? Do we agree change has to be deliberately chosen to be an improvement? Do you claim you can do it with your gut feeling? Do you claim that course I offered as a resource is false in any way? If so, please refer me to the counterargument. Do you claim organization of the site would not be good for its members? Do you claim segregation of topics would not organize this site? Do you claim this solution is not feasible?

I tried to be rigorous towards arguments you offered, and not harsh to you. I love you, and i hope this conversation will do good to both of us.

Comment author: Jiro 14 August 2015 02:36:42PM 4 points [-]

I love you

Please stop this. Unusual familiarity in the context of disagreeing with someone, is condescending and an insult. And no, it doesn't fool everyone, either.

Comment author: Lu93 comment score below threshold [+] (11 children)

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 15 August 2015 09:47:35AM 2 points [-]

Funny thing, the previous person with minimal earlier site presence who came in with "here's how to start properly growing Less Wrong" was also kind of tone-deaf and annoying.

Comment author: Lu93 15 August 2015 10:13:31AM -2 points [-]

You are just rude now. You just straight up try to insult and discredit me, you did not even try to hide it.

I never said "this is how to ..." I offered course specialized in that topic. I offered material. I don't own that course, i just thought it would be useful to people who try to get more members here (I met few of them, so i expect there are more). I properly separated what is my idea, from that course.

Comment author: ChristianKl 15 August 2015 12:39:00PM 1 point [-]

you did not even try to hide it.

LW doesn't have a culture where trying to hide what you want to communicate is valued.

Comment author: Jiro 15 August 2015 03:49:16PM * 0 points [-]

If i wanted to insult him, I would do that much simpler.

Insults don't work that way. And I don't think you seriously believe that just because someone's insult could be simpler, it isn't an insult.

Besides, just because the explanation for an insult isn't simple doesn't mean the insult isn't simple.

I wanted to make an end to any idea of aggressiveness.

The only way you can end aggressiveness is by not being aggressive. You can't be aggressive and then add something at the end to make up for it.

Besides, it's not even a lie... I do feel some kind of brother or sister love towards everyone.

It has a meaning based on context, and the meaning based on context is not "I love all human beings". This ought to go in "geek social fallacies" if it isn't already; "it's literally true" is not an excuse. Words have connotations and implications, and it is your responsibility to understand them.

Comment author: Lu93 16 August 2015 12:02:09PM * 0 points [-]

Edit: I believe that if it is plain there is no intention of insult, insult does not exist.

I plainly said that I wasn't aggressive towards him, that i was afraid my words can be interpreted like that, and that i wanted to cut that possibility off with words "i love you".

I have positive record with that tactic, people have understood my attitude like that in the past, and I expected it to work again. It didn't, and that is fine. Maybe I need better technique to express myself, but that is different topic now, and not important since I expressed everything explicitly afterwards (and now again). Why are you still behaving like I wanted to insult him with these words? You clearly see I don't have that intention.

it is your responsibility to understand them.

Yeah, it is, but today i don't understand. The only thing i see is related to "mother love" and sounding like I am above him, but I can't make a clear case out of it. And understanding is not dirty dishes, I cannot just make a decision to understand them and do it in a few minutes. Maybe I'll read something on that topic this year. I think it's your responsibility that if you see what I expressed and what i wanted to express, you take what I wanted to express (you can even warn me that I expressed wrongly, if you feel so.)

Comment author: Jiro 16 August 2015 03:20:14PM 1 point [-]

I plainly said that I wasn't aggressive towards him, that i was afraid my words can be interpreted like that, and that i wanted to cut that possibility off with words "i love you".

You can't add a disclaimer "Don't interpret my words as aggressive" and then be able to say anything at all without it being interpreted as aggressive. After all, anyone who does have aggressive intentions and just wants to lie about it can use any disclaimer that you can use.
Even as a disclaimer, "I love you" is not very good.
The reason why it is insulting is that using excessive familiarity with an opponent is a type of insult. I'm sure I could find some explanation for it (sounding like you're above him is pretty close), but really, you just need to know that certain things are insults. Understanding why they are insults is less important than understanding that they are insults.

Comment author: Lu93 24 August 2015 10:23:51AM * 0 points [-]

You can't add a disclaimer "Don't interpret my words as aggressive"

Well, you can often interpret someone's words many ways. Just because you cannot see the person, and you cannot get information about their emotional state. So, i think you can write something that can be understood many ways, and add a disclaimer, "it's not the other thing".

Regarding

using excessive familiarity with an opponent is a type of insult

I never saw this. Maybe we are from different areas, and this could be explained through cultural difference. First, I am thought to never approach opponent as an enemy, and to always keep in mind they are like me (meaning they are humans, with feelings, with ideas, with goals, with hobbies, with experiences) and not empty, emotionless, evil, etc. Furthermore, I approach discussion as a cooperative activity, since its purpose is to improve both me and the guy I discuss with, and give us both insight in something new. That's why I never saw "familiarity" being looked upon, since that behavior highlights those two mindsets.

However, I acknowledge there are people with different background, who have different approach (different, not opposite). And now I acknowledge some people could perceive familiarity as insult. Would you mind explaining me how does that insult work? I don't even have a feeling for it. The closest I ever encountered was where middle-high-class-old-lady meets some homeless person who says something along the lines of "we are the same" and then she stops him to say they are not the same, etc, but that is pretty far from this case.

Edit: formatting and spelling.

Comment author: Jiro 24 August 2015 02:48:16PM * 2 points [-]

So, i think you can write something that can be understood many ways, and add a disclaimer, "it's not the other thing"

You can try, but it's unlikely to work, because anyone who wants to be aggressive and lie about it can say exactly the same thing as you.

Would you mind explaining me how does that insult work?

Yes, I'd mind. Because you can reply "I don't understand your explanation (or I think your explanation is wrong), and since I don't understand it, I can keep using the insult".

That's wrong. You need to stop using insults whether you understand why they are insults or not. You can't use "I don't understand the insult" or "nobody has explained it to me properly" as an excuse to keep saying it.

Comment author: Lu93 22 September 2015 11:43:10AM -1 points [-]

You don't use some words only if you think the other guy would classify that as an insult (unless you want to insult him). If you dont know someone classifies something as an insult, you might use it on accident.

There is a set of rules that I use to describe an insult (which I have gotten from my culture). You have one, probably everybody has some set of rules. Some general set of rules. If my set of rules does not classify something as an insult, I will think it is safe to say that.

If it happens that I say something, which you consider an insult, and I don't, unless I understand what is it about, I will need to remember "never tell to Jiro that you love him" (I simplify for the sake of shortness, but there are other parameters inside that statement). I assume there is an underlying explanation behind your rule. This is probably not the only thing you would consider an insult and i wouldn't. Maybe you will consider an insult "I hate you", "I like your dog", "You love me", or whatever, but I cannot deduce that based on the "never tell Jiro that you love him".

Help me. I literary see chaos in your statements. I cannot deduce anything better than "Jiro (and maybe culture he is coming from) is quite different from the people (cultures) I faced already". I don't know if you can imagine that state of knowledge about something. It's mostly empty with only one example.

Comment author: Jiro 22 September 2015 02:56:22PM * 2 points [-]

If you dont know someone classifies something as an insult, you might use it on accident.

Well, now you know.

What I am trying to avoid is

I explain why the statement is an insult
You think "that's not a very good reason" or "that's not my motivation".
You decide that because you don't think the reason is very good, you can keep using it. Or you decide that because your motivation doesn't match the reason, you can keep using it.

I cannot deduce anything better than "Jiro (and maybe culture he is coming from) is quite different from the people (cultures) I faced already".

If you think I'm the only person who sees such things as insulting, and that the cultures you have already faced do not, you haven't been paying attention.

Comment author: ChristianKl 15 August 2015 12:57:03PM 0 points [-]

my rigorous attitude towards his arguments

You suggested that I likely haven't spend 5 minutes thinking about the subject which shows complete ignorance. That might be a honest belief but it certainly not rigorous.

Everybody regular of LW has thought about how to improve LW for more than 5 minutes. In my case I have even written tons of posts about the subject.

There are two ways to read this.
(1) You felt personally attacked and wanted to retaliate.
(2) You lack basic understanding.

It's very hard to read what you wrote and not come to the conclusion that (1) played at least a part.

I wanted to show open palms or something, but I cannot do that on keyboard.

And you failed. You communicated in a way that doesn't signal what you want to signal.

Jiro comments on Ideas on growth of the community - Less Wrong

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