Peterdjones comments on The Fallacy of Gray - Less Wrong

97 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 07 January 2008 06:24AM

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Comment author: non-expert 09 January 2013 02:22:36PM 1 point [-]

Throwing your hands in the air and saying "well we can never know for sure" is not as accurate as giving probabilities of various results. We can never know for sure which answer is right, but we can assign our probabilities so that, on average, we are always as confident as we should be. Of course, humans are ill-suited to this task, having a variety of suboptimal heuristics and downright biases, but they're all we have. And we can, in fact, assign the correct probabilities / choose the correct choice when we have the problem reduced to a mathematical model and apply the math without making mistakes.

If all you're looking for is confidence, why must you assign probabilities? I'm pushing you in hopes of understanding, not necessarily disagreeing. If I'm very religious and use that as my life-guide, I could be extremely confident in a given answer. In other words, the value of using probabilities must extend beyond confidence in my own answer -- confidence is just a personal feeling. Being "right" in a normative sense is also relevant, but as you point out, we often don't actually know what answer is correct. If your point instead is that probabilities will result in the right answer more often then not, fine, then accurately identifying the proper inputs and valuing them correctly is of utmost importance -- this is simply not practical in many situations precisely because the world is so complex. I guess it boils down to this -- what is the value of being "right" if what is "right" cannot be determined? I think there are decisions where what is right can be determined -- and rationality and the bayesian model works quite well. I think far more decisions (social relationships, politics, economics -- particularly decisions that do not directly affect the decision maker) are too subjective to know what is "right" or accurately model inputs. In those cases, I think rationality falls short, and the attempt to assign probabilities can give false confidence that the derived answer has a greater value than simply providing confidence that it is the best one.

I think I'm the only one on LessWrong that finds EY's writing maddening -- mostly the style -- I keep screaming to myself, "get to the point!" -- as noted, perhaps its just me. His examples from the cited article miss the point of perspectivism I think. Perspectivism (or at least how I am using it) simply means that truth can be relative, not that it is relative in all cases. Rationality does not seem to account for the possibility that it could be relative in any case.

Comment author: Peterdjones 09 January 2013 02:57:48PM 3 points [-]

Second, what do you think about the idea of "perspectivism" -- that there is only subjective truth in the world?

Perspectivism (or at least how I am using it) simply means that truth can be relative, not that it is relative in all cases

Inasmuch as subjectivism is a form of relativism, those comments seem to contradict each other.

Comment author: non-expert 10 January 2013 06:45:44AM 1 point [-]

Perspectivism provides that all truth is subjective, but in practice, this characterization has no relevance to the extent there is agreement on any particular truth. For example, "Murder is wrong," even if a subjective truth, is not so in practice because there is collective agreement that murder is wrong. That is all I meant, but agree that it was not clear.

Comment author: MugaSofer 10 January 2013 10:37:35AM *  -2 points [-]

Wait, does this "truth is relative" stuff only apply to moral questions? Because if it does then, while I personally disagree with you, there's a sizable minority here who wont.

Comment author: non-expert 14 January 2013 08:01:43AM 0 points [-]

What do you disagree with? That "truth is relative" applies to only moral questions? or that it applies to more than moral questions?

If instead your position is that moral truths are NOT relative, what is the basis for that position? No need to dive deep if you know of something i can read...even EY :)

Comment author: MugaSofer 14 January 2013 09:38:56AM *  1 point [-]

My position is that moral truths are not relative, exactly, but agents can of course have different goals. We can know what is Right, as long as we define it as "right according to human morals." Those are an objective (if hard to observe) part of reality. If we built an AI that tries to figure those out, then we get an ethical AI - so I would have a hard time calling them "subjective".

Of course, an AI with limited reasoning capacity might judge wrongly, but then humans do likewise - see e.g. Nazis.

EDIT: Regarding EY writings on the subject, he wrote a whole Metaethics Sequence, much of which is leading up to or directly discussing this exact topic. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble with the filters on this library computer, but it should be listed on the sequences page (link at top right) or in a search for "metaethics sequence".

Comment author: non-expert 14 January 2013 06:04:03PM 0 points [-]

We can know what is Right, as long as we define it as "right according to human morals." Those are an objective (if hard to observe) part of reality. If we built an AI that tries to figure those out, then we get an ethical AI - so I would have a hard time calling them "subjective"

I don't dispute the possibility that your conclusion may be correct, I'm wondering the basis under which you believe your position to be correct. Put another way, why are moral truths NOT relative? How do you know this? Thinking something can be done is fine (AI, etc.), but without substantiation it introduces a level of faith to the conversation -- I'm comfortable with that as the reason, but wondering if you are or if you have a different basis for the position.

From my view, moral truths may NOT be relative, but I have no basis for which to know that, so I've chosen to operate as if they are relative because (i) if moral truths exist but I don't know what they are, I'm in the same position as them not existing/being relative, and (ii) moral truths may not exist. This doesn't mean you don't use morality in your life, its just that you need to have a belief, without substantiation, that those you subscribe to conform with universal morals, if they exist.

OK, i'll try to search for those EY writings, thanks.

Comment author: brianmts 28 May 2013 06:37:57PM *  0 points [-]

Comment author: MugaSofer 29 May 2013 10:53:55AM *  -1 points [-]

I, ah ... I'm not seeing anything here. Have you accidentally posted just a space or something?

Comment author: Peterdjones 10 January 2013 12:50:27PM 0 points [-]

Thanks for the clarifiction.