gjm comments on Rationality Quotes Thread September 2015 - Less Wrong

3 Post author: elharo 02 September 2015 09:25AM

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Comment author: CCC 29 September 2015 02:24:41PM *  3 points [-]

As a religious person myself, I have to say that's the one part of the Sequences that seems to me to be poorly fitted. (I haven't read them all, but in the ones I have read). Its inclusion seems to follow one of two patterns.

The first pattern is, "all religion is false and I do not have to explain why because it is obvious". These I ignore, as they give me no information to work from. (Your use of the phrase "religious delusions" I also class under this category).

The second pattern is, "I have known religious people who have fallen into this fallacy, this trap, this way of reasoning poorly, and have used it to support their claims". Again, this tells me nothing about whether or not God exists; it merely tells me that some people's arguments in favour of God's existence are flawed. It means nothing. I can give you a flawed argument for the proposition that 16/64 is equal to 1/4; the fact that my argument is flawed does not make 16/64 == 1/4 false.

...so, as far as I've so far seen, that's pretty much where things stand. The Sequences praise the virtues of clear thought, of looking at evidence before coming to a conclusion, of not writing the line at the bottom of the page until after you have written the argument on the page... and then, in this one matter, insist on giving the line at the bottom of the page and not the argument? It just gives the feeling of being tacked on, an atheist meme somehow caught up where it doesn't, strictly speaking, belong.

...maybe there's something in the parts I haven't yet read that explains this discreprency. I doubt it, because if there was I imagine it would be linked to a lot more often, but it is still possible.

Comment author: gjm 29 September 2015 04:43:27PM 4 points [-]

Your use of the phrase "religious delusions"

For the avoidance of doubt, I was putting that in the mouth of Hypothetical Modern-Day Karl Marx rather than expressing my own attitude to religion. (In case you care: I am an atheist; my wife is an active Christian; I firmly disagree with all the religions I know enough about to have an opinion but don't think words like "delusion" are generally helpful for describing them.)

As for the use of religion in the Sequences, I think what's going on is this:

  • Eliezer thinks it's really obvious, when one thinks clearly, that the usual religions are wrong.
  • He expects most of his readers to agree and have similar reasons.
  • On the other hand, there are plenty of religious people about, some of whom are very smart.
  • So he uses religion as an example of something that convinces lots of people despite being very wrong.
  • Of course some of his readers will disagree, but he anticipates less disagreement on religion than on other topics where he sees widespread wrongness.
  • He doesn't spend time arguing against religion because (1) he expects most people who remain religious despite exposure to hardcore rational thinking to be basically unpersuadable and (2) discussions of religion have a way of taking over (a bit like discussions of hot-button political issues) and he didn't want everyone engaged in religious flamewars rather than discussions of other things.

That all seems reasonable (whether or not correct) to me.

Comment author: CCC 29 September 2015 07:03:21PM 2 points [-]

For the avoidance of doubt, I was putting that in the mouth of Hypothetical Modern-Day Karl Marx rather than expressing my own attitude to religion.

...ah. I completely misconstrued your intentions there. My apologies.

As for the use of religion in the Sequences, I think what's going on is this:

I think you are very probably correct, or close to correct. Unfortunately, it seems to have had the effect of turning atheism into something of an applause light in the comments.

Comment author: gjm 29 September 2015 07:45:13PM 3 points [-]

turning atheism into something of an applause light

Well, religious (and anti-religious) debates have the reputation they have for a reason :-).