moridinamael comments on Flowsheet Logic and Notecard Logic - Less Wrong

25 Post author: moridinamael 09 September 2015 04:42PM

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Comment author: moridinamael 09 September 2015 06:55:48PM 5 points [-]

I guess I ultimately didn't do a good job in my original article.

I am trying to point out widespread human tendencies in argumentation toward treating both argument and evidence as semantically empty tokens in some abstract game of Mancala. "If I get my tokens across the board (meaning, you ignore certain arguments because you find them petty or irrelevant, etc.) then I win!" It is a natural category of bad-arguing that I'm trying to highlight.

I think you may simply lack a referent for the phenomenon I am describing. In which case, consider yourself lucky. Again, I see this ramshackle logic on my Facebook feed all the time because many of my Facebook friends were debaters. I was a debater, and I learned to recognize the difference between "debating logic" and "actual logic" in my own thinking. It is highly salient and singular to me, and having recognized its failure modes, I now see it elsewhere as well.

Perhaps a clarifying point would be this: The purpose of argumentation for a flowsheet-arguer is to "win" by getting their argument to the "right side of the page". In other words, they value the appearance of winning above any other aspect of the argument. They don't particularly care whether it's a good argument, they just care that their opponent can't/won't refute it. They don't even need to believe their own argument. (Policy debate trains you to not need to believe your own arguments.) This is the problem with the mindset.

In contrast, I think a healthier purpose of argumentation would be to find truth, or to persuade, or even to exercise logical skill. Putting too much weight on the appearance of winning interferes with these loftier aims.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 09 September 2015 08:27:15PM 4 points [-]

Fair enough. Downvote retracted.

Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 10 September 2015 08:48:18PM *  3 points [-]

I upvoted the whole chain up to here because it shows how a rational discussion should go: Point out flaws, clarify what is meant, summarize, update!

Good practice!.

Note: I think that OrphanWilde is uncheritably downvoted for standing up for an unpopular position on this. One could easily read that as voting against perceived dissenters.

Comment author: Viliam 11 September 2015 07:00:42AM 4 points [-]

One could easily read that as voting against perceived dissenters.

Downvotes are part of the system, not a failure of the system. Let's not make a drama when someone's comment gets into negative numbers.

Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 12 September 2015 07:20:37AM 2 points [-]

I fully agree that downvotes in general are a necessary feature of the system and everybody has their own right to use them as they see fit.

I also agree that if some comments go negative the cause is often hard so determine and to make drama about it is a lost cause.

Mostly. Here this is less about the individual but what tha pattern of downvotes tells about the community: Voting against perceived out-group. Maybe I have not made that clear enough. I suggest reconsidering whether the downvotes voted down because of perceived in-group opinion or because of genuine reasons.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 15 September 2015 03:49:25PM 2 points [-]

I got 90% of my upvotes because my opinion happened to align with the majority group's on a contentious topic. It's hard to complain overmuch about downvotes for the same reason. Granted, it's also hard to hold upvotes/downvotes in any kind of regard anymore; hell, my most upvoted comments of all time were social commentary on an issue 90%+ of the people involved were mindkilled on, rather than any of the meaningful contributions I've attempted.

Comment author: Lumifer 15 September 2015 04:15:19PM 2 points [-]

Karma is a passable negative feedback tool, but it's a horrible positive feedback tool.

Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 16 September 2015 05:59:53AM 0 points [-]

My intuition would have been the opposite. Can you explain?

Comment author: Lumifer 16 September 2015 06:09:28AM 1 point [-]

Maybe an example will help.

If you take pictures and post them on photography websites, the "likes" will tell you that you should photograph sunsets, puppies, and well-lit soft porn. That's... really bad advice :-/